Author Topic: beginner fighter  (Read 3774 times)

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2008, 06:09:00 PM »
Compressibility has been commonly used to describe numerous high speed handling problems, even though not every example it is applied to has anything to do with airflow shock waves.

Thank you for making my point for me.
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Offline Murdr

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2008, 07:06:26 PM »
Thank you for making my point for me.
Your point that everyone else is stupid and doesn't understand?  If that's the case, I don't believe I have.  What I was pointing out was that historically when these issues were being first encountered in the 30's and 40's these gremlins were refered to generically as compresibility whether they truely had anything to do with the proper fluid dynamics definition or not.

So either I am one of very few, or you are making unsubstantiated assumptions.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2008, 08:15:00 PM »
Thing about the P-38 is it does everything fairly good.

Quote
rolls very well,


It will only roll well at high speeds, with the L being the best of the three due to the boosted ailerons.  At low speed though, the boosted ailerons don't assist all that much and the P-38's roll is rather on the poor side.  However, decent P-38 sticks can use this to their advantage but these 38 drivers turn out to be the exception rather than the norm.

Quote
I believe its a great starters airplane

It's one of the worst planes to cut your teeth on, unless you're a masochist and the frustration that goes with dying a lot.

Though a lot of us dedicated 38 drivers like to joke how EZ mode the P-38 is, in reality to a new player or even a veteran player flying the P-38 for the first time, it's anything but an EZ mode plane. 


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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2008, 11:22:59 PM »
Back in the early days of Warbirds the P-38L was the uber plane of choice.  Every noob was instructed to fly it.  What happened?  HT and Pyro had the same data, right?  Did they get something wrong?  Why did they change their minds?  It used to turn with a SpitV.
 :noid :noid :noid
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Offline Murdr

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2008, 11:38:03 PM »
Back in the early days of Warbirds the P-38L was the uber plane of choice.  Every noob was instructed to fly it.  What happened?  HT and Pyro had the same data, right?  Did they get something wrong?  Why did they change their minds?  It used to turn with a SpitV.
 :noid :noid :noid

It used to turn with spits in Airwarrior also with flaps.  The airframe data probably hasn't changed, but the Flight Model that data operates within has become much more sophisticated over time.  IIRC, even between AHI and AHII they doubled the points of force modeled, and changes have been made on the thrust/drag model since AHII was first released.

For example, here is a screenshot from a developers version showing lift and thrust points of force:




The P-38 isn't a bad plane for tooling around in to learn to fly.  It is also a good all around JABO platform.  But when it's dropped into the MA environment under combat there are quite a bit of specific tactical considerations and plane flying tasks to load on an inexperienced player.  When a player is loaded with additional "busy work" tasks along with the basic skills that they are trying to learn, it really detracts from the basic skills performance.  With SA for example, the more attention devoted to managing and maintaining controled flight, the smaller the sphere of SA they can devote to what's going on around them. 

When we are talking about new players, I think the last thing we want to do is summarly guide them to a situation where a high percentage may easily be frustrated.  Not everyone picks things up at the same pace, or will meet with the same success than any of us may have had individually.  Trust me that players interested in asking a question like this topic, tend to come back and ask for suggestions of new challenges when they feel comfortable with the basic skills they're looking for.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 12:12:09 AM by Murdr »

Offline vizwhiz

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2008, 11:19:06 PM »
You're a new pilot, or just new to this game?
If you're a new pilot, not one familiar with flying planes in general, the Spit 9 is the best all-around starter plane.
For a new pilot, all that techno-stuff about roll rates and acceleration doesn't make much sense yet. :confused:

What you need is a plane that goes up when you pull the stick back, rolls when you move the stick to the left or right, and speeds up and slows down with corresponding movements of the throttle. 
That's the Spit 9 (Spitfire IX).  :aok

You don't have to think about throttle position much (just go right to wide-open). :O
You don't have to think about flaps and other things that hang off the plane.
You just point-and-shoot.

The straightforward handling characteristics will help you gain a little bit of "air sense" and you'll be able to spend more time looking outside the plane, rather than at the instrument panel.
 

Next piece of advice is to go into the off-line practice area and learn to take off and land.  Once you get the hang of taking off and landing in a plane that models real flight characteristics, you'll feel a lot better about actually shooting at things.  Also, landing and taking off a lot of times gets you used to how fast your plane climbs, how fast it has to go before you can turn well, how to make it slow down when descending, just good all-around handling of the plane.  For example, not overshooting an enemy plane you're closing on from behind...well, that's kinda like slowing down to land...so you need to learn to land first.  Trying to climb up to where the fight is...well, you have to take off and climb out to do that.  Trying to line up on the runway at slow speed, well that's the first step to a slow turning dogfight.

Second piece of advice...get help setting up the views, the gun convergence, etc.  Go to the Training Arena for that.  And read more posts.  That is essential, as others have already pointed out quite well.

Last piece of advice at this early stage, go into the offline practice every time you get on the game and shoot down all four of the drone planes that are circling the field.  Maybe do it twice once they've respawned.  It is good practice to get you oriented to pointing the plane in the right place, learning what your tracers are telling you, how much damage your bullets do and figuring out what it takes to actually shoot down one of the planes, how long your ammo lasts, etc. etc.  It gets you prepped for the arenas where you are flying against real people.

Most importantly, HAVE FUN!  It's a GAME! (You're a TOY!)
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Offline NEARY

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2008, 11:06:48 PM »
the p-51 is my favorite for #1: killing a v-bases dar #2:deacking the field. then i sneak a goon in and boom it is the rooks.

the a6m is what i have been using for turn fights but i always get killed.

the a-20 is the best gv killer available

b-17s are good for starting level bombing.

the spit 16 is great for when you got to get in the air quickly

the bf-110 is the best town killer and the early version when attacking a strategic target it will give oh so many perks.

hope this helps



sincerely,
NEARY
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2008, 08:21:18 AM »
And here I was thinking that dropping bombs from Jabos was part of the game new players should learn. Gee where did I get that idea? Maybe it was the hangar where the floor is loaded with bombs and rockets. Or, maybe it was all the bombs and rockets getting dropped on the bases Im trying to upp from, or the CV Im trying to take off from. Or maybe it was the big, spanking new Jabo bomb and rocket targets up in the TA?

And I dont know where I got the idea an airplane should hold enough gas to get to a fight, after a climb out, and then have enought to get back.

And I have no idea where the idea sprang up that if a noob could fly a plane that was decent at everything then he/she himself could get decent at everything quickly. Most of all an airplane that forces you to use the verticle as if its the horizontal.

The 38 is easiest to land and take off in. Its the easiest fighter to do this in. It has guns that you just point and shoot.

But...everyones game is different. Unless all you do is furball. I might furball 20% of my time, "frankly it bores me", and for that I'd use a spit, LA, Yak, KI, Niki, or 109. Easiest plane to learn to furball in? Probably a Spit.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 08:25:52 AM by Rich46yo »
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Offline RATTFINK

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2008, 08:25:59 AM »
Spit IX, F4F, FM2
Hitting trees since tour 78

Offline 20mmrain

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2008, 10:07:04 AM »
       I think the best begging fighter for allot of people is the spit in all variations except the mark one! They all accelerate very well. They also are very nimble ans easy to Handel! I think to narrow it down even more you have to think what exactly are you looking for in a plane. So if we take the spit's and run with that, the 4best I would name are......(not in this order necessarily)

1) The Spit V Is the most nimble and can definitely turn the best. But It lacksin Ammo and speed.

2) The Spit VIII has a very fast low end acceleration advantage with a fairly decent top end speed too. It also is very nimble almost as good as a Spit 9 or 5.

3) The Spit IX Is for intents and purposes the same plane as the 5, but its alittle less maneuverable ans has a much more powerful engine!

4) The Spit XVI is definitely the fastest of the nonperk planes! It also has very good acceleration. As well it is fairly nimble and has a great roll rate, but because of the clipped wing and its great roll rate it can be hard for new pilots some times to control that.

Well that is my opinion I hope it helps. I have one other statement for you, on whatever plane you end up picking....... (wether it's a p51 a spitfire a n1k or any other plane) stay with it and learn every aspect before you start jumping around plane to plane! Trust me it will help to learn the manovers opposed from have to worry about how different each plane handles! Sorry if this doesn't sound completely right i was typing fast LOL!

Good luck 20mmrain
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Offline Damionte

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2008, 11:13:22 AM »
Best beginning fighter as you can see is going to give you a lot of different opinions.

Answers depends on your taste. What do you want to learn to do in a fighter? Will you dogfight all the time or dropping bombs? You probably haven't figured out which you like more, or rather you plan on doign both equally.

Do you have a good stick and rudder or using keyboard and mouse?


For an all around player the P38 is the best choice of plane. Rather new player or veteran.

For a new player it is very easy to fly. Its easy to land and take off, it's very easy to control in level flight. It does everything well. It's only real weaknesses are it's size (Making it an easier target to hit.) And the compression problems in too long of a dive. (something you'll learn to get past in time.)

The thing that makes the P38 hard to fly for  new pilot is that it requires a decent amount of knowledge about the other planes. In general it can out turn most of the planes it can't out run, and can out run most of the planes it can't out turn. You though have to be able to quickly remember which planes can do what so yuo can exploit what advantage you have.

If you have a good trainer you can meet with regularly, and are willing to put in the time to study the other planes you'll never need any other aircraft other than the P38.

What you won't do in a P38 as a new pilot is get kills. You're going to get killed a lot.

If you don't have access to a regular trainer then this is not the plane you want to start in. This is a good third plane.

Take one of the mid range spitfires and learn to turn fight for a tour. Then take a fast plane like the P51 and learn to BnZ fight for a frame.
Then graduate to planes like the F4U or P38 which can do both. Merging the two extreme styles to become an energy fighter. 
Drackson

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Offline morfiend

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2008, 05:12:46 PM »
 Whats your favourite plane???? try that 1.
 It's a game, have fun,fly what you like.
 Some planes are better to start in,depends on your level of flight sim experence.
 Do you need to learn to land?? 38 a good choice for that,want to learn acm,spit,niki,zero and hurrie good for that.

 My best advice,frequent the TA and learn all the planes in hanger.Afterall it's easier to defeat a plane if you know what it's capable of doing.Notice I said plane??? the pilot makes all the difference...

 :noid

Offline DamnedRen

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2008, 09:56:06 AM »
There's an old saying out there somewhere...."ya gots to learn to walk b4 ya'll can run".

Most folks assume you already can take off, land, turn, climb, zoom, stall, snap roll, stand on the brakes not lose sight of the guy yer flying with no matter where he goes or how he turns. We haven't started talking tactics yet. The first question is, "can you do all that"?  Please reread it and then answer. If you can, what plane are you able to do that in and if so use that plane.
If you can't read on...

As previously noted, people have responded saying you want something forgiving, or easy to fly. Something you can fly and make mistakes in without falling to earth and make a big hole in the ground. If you look at Airline Pilots flying you from your home airport to grandma's in that big fancy jet you need to realize the pilot didn't walk into the airline's offices and say, "ok I'm wanna fly so where do I sign up and start flying?" He actually learned to fly in...you guessed it... an easy to fly, forgiving airplane. Unfortunately, fighters a designed with performance in mind. They go faster, turn under higher G loads without falling apart, increased visability, guns (wow!) and ride the raw edge of the performance envelope more times than you can imagine. However!!!,
HTC has given you the advantage of being able fly and crash and still get up right away to try it again.

All that being said, the more easy planes that allow you to get your feet wet faster, and also let you stay in the air longer (barring major mistakes on your part) are the Spit class and N1k's. However, some planes are also used by trainers to provide you with a particular set of flight characteristics that allow them to show you a "how-to" quickly master a flight lesson. For instance, any plane can be made to perform lead, pure and lag pursuit. A trainer might take you up in a zero to perform those maneuvers.
Things happen slower in that plane, yet it turns tight and has a decent roll rate. Combine all those together and you get a plane
that will let you "see" the maneuver quickly and clearly so you can absorb and retain the lesson and move on to the next one. After learned and it hits home, you go back into another plane a perform the same maneuver. It's an effective way to move you along in training so you can begin to enjoy dogfighting without spending as much time in the Tower.

You're the guy who wants to get his feet wet as soon as possible. WTG! If you want to get the biggest bang for your buck then take the time to head over to the Training Arena (TA) and learn whacha need to know. As you learn more you will begin using different planes but start easy and work your way. Learn the limits of each plane. As you begin to learn the limits and move to another plane to learn its limits you will begin to learn the differences between each plane and what their comparative strengths and weaknesses are. If you currently think there is a lot to learn you may find out there is 10x more than that. That's what makes the game so great. It's like a really really fast chess game. Each move has a counter move. You can set up a strategy on how you plan to shoot that other dude down before you ever get to the merge and the "fights on". The only difference between this and chess is you get to shoot the dude down iso knocking his king over on a chess board. Both are similiar in that when you "own" the dude (read pwn) you know and so does he. :)

Bottom line...get some training so you have a firm foundation to build on....

Hope this helps

Ren
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Offline morfiend

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2008, 07:15:08 PM »
 Ren, my thoughts exactly...... Tho much more elequently said.. :o

Offline goober69

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Re: beginner fighter
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2008, 10:44:58 PM »
It used to turn with spits in Airwarrior also with flaps.  The airframe data probably hasn't changed, but the Flight Model that data operates within has become much more sophisticated over time.  IIRC, even between AHI and AHII they doubled the points of force modeled, and changes have been made on the thrust/drag model since AHII was first released.

For example, here is a screenshot from a developers version showing lift and thrust points of force:
(Image removed from quote.)



The P-38 isn't a bad plane for tooling around in to learn to fly.  It is also a good all around JABO platform.  But when it's dropped into the MA environment under combat there are quite a bit of specific tactical considerations and plane flying tasks to load on an inexperienced player.  When a player is loaded with additional "busy work" tasks along with the basic skills that they are trying to learn, it really detracts from the basic skills performance.  With SA for example, the more attention devoted to managing and maintaining controled flight, the smaller the sphere of SA they can devote to what's going on around them. 

When we are talking about new players, I think the last thing we want to do is summarly guide them to a situation where a high percentage may easily be frustrated.  Not everyone picks things up at the same pace, or will meet with the same success than any of us may have had individually.  Trust me that players interested in asking a question like this topic, tend to come back and ask for suggestions of new challenges when they feel comfortable with the basic skills they're looking for.


woooow i had no idea it was that complicated/sophisticated  that is so cool how they do that with a computer program
flying as Marvin57
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