Hiding the Lockheed plant during WWII

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

That's an easy question to answer. The leaders of the Japanese military believed the U.S. was soft, and unwilling to commit to victory in a nasty fight. Yamamoto desperately tried to convince them otherwise saying "any U.S. surrender would require an invasion of the U.S., and the surrender would have to be signed in the White House", and "the Americans are a just and righteous people, they will not be defeated". He also told them "I can guarantee you that I can run wild for about 6 months in the Pacific, and after that I can promise nothing." It was almost prophetic, Pearl Harbor to Midway was almost exactly 6 months. Granted, Midway was a victory achieved as much through intelligence as anything else, but 6 months was all they got.

[Rich46yo]

That's an easy question to answer. The leaders of the Japanese military believed the U.S. was soft, and unwilling to commit to victory in a nasty fight. Yamamoto desperately tried to convince them otherwise saying "any U.S. surrender would require an invasion of the U.S., and the surrender would have to be signed in the White House", and "the Americans are a just and righteous people, they will not be defeated". He also told them "I can guarantee you that I can run wild for about 6 months in the Pacific, and after that I can promise nothing." It was almost prophetic, Pearl Harbor to Midway was almost exactly 6 months. Granted, Midway was a victory achieved as much through intelligence as anything else, but 6 months was all they got.

Part of what made Yamamoto dangerous was the fact he understood Americans very well. There were others in positions of power, men who had traveled to, lived in, and most of all studied America and her history. But your right, their opinions were drowned out by the racial superiority crowd. At most Japan had a sake driven shadow of its samurai past in WW-2. The real Samurai would never underestimate their enemy and or act precipitously or stupidly.

Had they studied our history they would have realized we have always been a martial people who would never shrink from a fight. But I guess the real kicker was they didn't want to give up their dreams of Empire, stop their march into Asia, and be seen as backing down to America. I guess in their eyes we were hypocrites in that we had established Asian colonies as well. And at least in the case of the Philippines used brutal methods to pacify insurgents opposed to our occupation.

Forgive me for a semi-hijack but its all very interesting stuff.

[Serenity]

In the hindesight looking glass of history its difficult to imagine any Japanese leaders actually believed victory was possible against the Pacific allies in '41. I know their objecive was only to buy time in order to consolidate their conquests but even that reasoning is deeply flawed because whats the point of "buying time" if youv started a war you couldnt possibly win in the long run?

Japan had no decent armor, no radar, no parachute regiments, no long range bombers. They garrisoned the perimeter of a huge , far flung Empire with troops they had limited ability to supply. They had no convoy plans or assets available to assign to convoy duty. They had a very limited shipbuilding/Industrial capacity. They had decent submarines with good torpedoes but never really developed effective doctrine to make the best use of them.

I could list a thousand reasons why they should have realized in '41 that is was suicide to attack America and her allies in the Pacific.

So in hindsight it seems silly Lockheed would go to such lengths to hide its industry against the few crummy float planes the Jap submarine force could drum up. But I guess in 1941 the fear was real.

I agree, but when the bombs and shells are actually falling on you, a 100lb bomb from a float plane looks like a 4,000lb laser-guided-cookie and that little 3-inch deck gun feels like a barrage of 18-inch death.

[Golfer]

Spoken like someone who's obviously been there.

[Serenity]

Spoken like someone who's obviously been there.

Golfer, do you disagree? Can that inference not be made by looking at the comments and actions of those who WERE there?

[Chalenge]

Golfer, do you disagree? Can that inference not be made by looking at the comments and actions of those who WERE there?

I think what he meant by inference was that for you to take that perspective could imply you had once been under fire.

[Serenity]

I think what he meant by inference was that for you to take that perspective could imply you had once been under fire.

If that is the case, my point still stands. Is it tough to see that? We have all heard talk from people who were under fire, and we all know our history, and one thing that is often emphasised (As far back as Sun Tzu) is the effect of fear in combat. It happens today. You get a bag of white powder in the mail annonimously. You immidiately panic and think anthrax, regardless of the fact that it looks remarkably like sugar...

No, I have not been in combat. But it doesn't take being there to realise the effect fear can have on people.

[Rich46yo]

I agree, but when the bombs and shells are actually falling on you, a 100lb bomb from a float plane looks like a 4,000lb laser-guided-cookie and that little 3-inch deck gun feels like a barrage of 18-inch death.

Im not sure this statement is relevant, whether youv been there or not. We had to send huge formations of heavy bombers to reduce aircraft factories to a percentage worth the effort. To think that Japanese submarine launched aircraft would have any impact on Lockheed production is laughable.

[Chalenge]

I think the effort was made on the possibility of Japan parking a fleet off of San Francisco and causing mayhem all along the coast. I dont believe anyone thought they would but that they could needed to be considered. One Admiral had already lost his command for not considering the possibilities.

[Serenity]

Im not sure this statement is relevant, whether youv been there or not. We had to send huge formations of heavy bombers to reduce aircraft factories to a percentage worth the effort. To think that Japanese submarine launched aircraft would have any impact on Lockheed production is laughable.

The statement was to give my idea as to why the plant was put under such camoflage. Someone said "In hindsight" etc. I was simply pointing out that while hindsight is 20/20, at the time we didn't have all of the information we have today. So, (I guess I should have added IMHO or something to clarify this) "In MY oppinion, because all america knew was that we were being attacked, we felt it was necessary to hide our major production lines, lest they be destroyed in the next attack".

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Im not sure this statement is relevant, whether youv been there or not. We had to send huge formations of heavy bombers to reduce aircraft factories to a percentage worth the effort. To think that Japanese submarine launched aircraft would have any impact on Lockheed production is laughable.

If they could manage to get ONE bomb hit on that plant, the impact on production would have been incredible. And Lockheed was strictly forbidden to shut down the P-38 lines for ANY reason.

[Golfer]

That proves it that a bomb would not have an effect on the P-38 production line!  Just like my airplane is not certified for ditching therefore both engines will not flame out over water...
 

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

http://www.angelfire.com/bc/sanfranartillery/
http://www.angelfire.com/bc/sanfranartillery/Mendel1.html


We called them "pop up cannons".


I think the united states had the right stuff and did everything they needed to do to keep our country safe.
Cants see it happening this day and age tho. (least not without another sucker punch)

[Charge]

"If they could manage to get ONE bomb hit on that plant, the impact on production would have been incredible."

Interesting. I wonder how many bomb hits it took from the 8th airforce at the factories in Germany to get enough reason for Germans to move them underground (where possible)...

Thus I wonder on what such claim is based on.

-C+

[SIK1]

Well it was better to hide it and not need to than to not hide it and need to.  We were at war with an enemy that had already attacked us once.