Wow....

[VansCrew1]

If you like to BnZ, let it be, you're having fun, it's your money. Everyone (including me) puts down BnZ'ers because it takes no skill

pfff

[Capt.Joe]

My thread is forum gold, it should be melted down, turned into minature f/a-18 fighter jets and handed out to everyone who participated.

Agreed!

[BnZ]

I wouldn't say it takes no skill, but it certainly the method of least skill and absolute minimum risk. And in general is most successful in the MA when used against cons already engaged. In that scenario it equals no skill.


<S>...-Gixer

Having experimented with both   , the easiest way to kill an already engaged bandit (or any bandit) is to fly right up to his six with a reasonably controlled closure rate, in something that turns as well or better, stay on his six, and shoot him. Preferably with cannons. Lots and lots of cannons. Hence the N1K statistic making perfect sense.

By comparison, any gunnery/killing where the closure rate is high and where you can not follow the opponent's turn very long is exponentially more difficult. If BnZing reduces risk on one end, it increases difficulty of killing on the other.

[Steve]

In a true Co-E fight, both of you starting above corner speed, you are an exceptional pilot (which more than anyone cares to admit consists of being an excellent gunner) who stands a good chance of getting a killing blow in before the speed bleeds down enough for the Spit to hold all the cards.

Also, there are many situations where one may be co-alt but NOT necessarily Co-E, because of the speed the Pony carries in level flight, and the questionable merging practices of many newb Spit drivers can only the E gap.. I'm thinking of one of the last Pony v C-Hog clips you posted here...

Certainly I agree that Co-alt and Co-E are different. 



 In the C-hog film I posted, the Hog was higher and initailly faster. In the  dive I had to slow down to allow him to catch me; a tricky proposition it is to slow down so a c-hog can catch you, without getting yourself obliterated.

In any case, are you telling me you won't extend if the extending option is open and the situation has obviously gone completely sour?

No, when did I mention something like this? 

I thank you for your kind words about my game play. IMHO my choice of ride doesn't have much(yes it has some) to do with what success I have in the game. I will explain: In the MA, with it's mass of players, it is my opinion that perhaps the most important skill to have is to  be able to kill your opponent quickly. This is a combination of planning, decision making(SA),  and gunnery. With the huge amount of planes in the virtual air, even a 10 to 20 second fight is going to attract others. I strive to find a way to kill the bad guys as quickly as possible so I don't become a victim myself.

There are plenty of guys who can fly circles around me in the DA . But the DA is not the MA.  In the MA, SA plays a much bigger role. There are some great sticks in the MA who are real aces 1v1 but get frequently shot down. You know some of them as some are quite verbal on 200: "Ganger" "Coward" "let's go to the DA, I'll own you"..... as if it's not their fault they couldn't(or simply chose not to) track more than one plane.

The ace 1v1 guys that don't care that they got shot down won't be seen typing these things.

[pluck]

lets be fair.

turning in circles in a furball is as easy as pointing the nose up, then down.

shooting planes that are already engaged is so easy a cave man could do it.

I would ask you which is more challenging...fighting against several planes in which you don't hold the advantage, and are probably in at a disadvantage....or fighting against a single plane in which you hold a significant advantage?...then add a few friends.  SA is important to every type of pilot, and is not more important to any single style but equally important to both.  Though while furballing, it will be stressed more as you are constantly thinking about your target, and the 6 guys trying to pick you while you fight.

I don't think using a planes ability to turn is a fair assesment of why turn fighting is easier than bnz'ing.  Maybe look at who's flying it, gun packages, ability to disengage, and the manner in which it is flown.  You can bnz and run in any plane.  Maybe another example would be if noobs are choosing the N1K, and flying in hoardes at all times, vulching fields etc, you might expect k/d and k/t for the plane type to be fairly high...though individual stats somewhat low.

I generally choose to furball, I expect to be shot down many times.  I wouldn't try to call someone out who picked my plane, or ran from a fight, eject on sight of contact, or any of the 100 dweeby lame things I usually see.  But when I see stuff that is lame, dweeby, gamey, I think of the player as such.  A picker is a picker.  A vulcher is a vulcher. A furballer a furballer.  No need to justify, or try to explain which is better, which takes more skill, it is what it is.  As a furballer, I fully embrace the idea that I don't usually drop bombs, I don't usually listen to what others tell me to do, and go about my gameplay as carefree as possible.  A bnz'r (for example) should just embrace their profession and realize they want to have stats/score, they want to never fight from a disadvantage, never take any chances.  It's not right or wrong.

[FiLtH]

         The best BnZ pilots can also fight low and slow when the need arises, in the same plane they BnZ in. The rest rely on horsepower, surprise, and firepower.  While most TnBers can play the BnZ game to atleast moderate success, not many of the BnZ guys can be successful at the TnB. This is simply an observation, from years of playing this foolish game.

[BnZ]

         The best BnZ pilots can also fight low and slow when the need arises, in the same plane they BnZ in. The rest rely on horsepower, surprise, and firepower.  While most TnBers can play the BnZ game to atleast moderate success, not many of the BnZ guys can be successful at the TnB. This is simply an observation, from years of playing this foolish game.

Really? I find something like Spit v. Spit co-E in the MA easier than something like D9 v. Spit, really, no matter what the E advantage.

[BillyD]

What's with the F/A 18 lately? Everyone is talkin bout someone flyin F/A 18s......wtf? The Super Hornet seems like a wonderful aircraft. does anyone want to argue this ?

[Zazen13]

Certainly I agree that Co-alt and Co-E are different. 

This is a very important distinction. I don't see it that much anymore in the MA, but in AW this was the jedi trick of the masters. It's referred to as "Hiding E". It's the crafty and sneaky way of engaging and seducing an opponent to engage by making him believe he is at least Co-E or even has an E advantage. It's done by generating E outside of the visual range he could see you do it, then approach to merge from an aspect that makes it hard for him to accurately judge your rate of closure compared to his, often from slightly below him in a shallow climb. Then when he's passed the point of no return you make him pay. This is part of E fighting, as is BnZ.

As far as E-Fighting w/ BnZing vs. TnB'ing is concerned. I can say as someone who learned to play TnB'ing first, then evolved to be an E fighting specialist a few years later, it's really not more difficult to get kills per se one way or the other, but it is harder to be as efficient a killer BnZ'ing. The way you have to get kills is quite different from the perspective of pace and initiative fighting vs. reactionary fighting. It's much harder to kill quickly E fighting, because you are generally in a plane that has the only real defense, if in a bad situation, to disengage completely. A TnBer can stay defensive with a chance of turning the tables to regain the offensive much more readily just by sheer maneuverability without having to disengage at all, especially if his opponent(s) are less maneuverable.

Without the E advantage an E fighter really cannot shake an equally skilled pilot in a more maneuverable plane on his six. The reverse is not true however, a more maneuverable plane can shake or avoid a less maneuverable E fighter indefinitely, fairly easily, even if less skilled. So, there's really a lot less margin for error E fighting, there's no failsafe if you have your E advantage negated, you're pretty much toast.

What makes a good BnZ'er is timing. Timing and aim  is everything. Everything is much faster paced at or near the point of engagement BnZng as opposed to TnB'ing. It's quite difficult in a lot of situations to be at the exact right 3 dimensional space at the exact right time with closure rates potentially as high as 1,000 mph on a maneuvering opponent, especially if he's aware of you. Then to get the timing right, get the shot off, make it count and do all that without negating your E advantage on that adversary, if not destroyed, or others nearby is often quite tricky. While not to belittle TnB'ing, I wouldn't necessarily call flinging a Spit16 around, latching onto someone's six and hammering away quite the same degree of difficulty, especially if the adversary is of inferior skill or not in one of the 3 or 4 more maneuverable planes in the game.

As someone alluded to, may have been AKAK. BnZing is pure aggression, if you have the advantage you should be attacking or at least poised in a coiled position to pounce at the first attractive opportunity and press the advantage until you no longer have one or he is destroyed. What people see is a lot of people BnZing who really don't understand how to exploit the initiative of a fast plane in an advantageous energy state. What they don't consider is those folks, while they may be a pest, are almost invariably sporting a paltry 1 or 2 kills an hour. It is nearly impossible to BnZ or just E fight in general without an aggressive spirit and maintain anything that could be considered reasonable killing efficiency.

[Steve]

lets be fair.

they want to have stats/score, they want to never fight from a disadvantage, never take any chances.  It's not right or wrong.

It's wrong... well that is to say, you're wrong.

[Chalenge]

Steve can you post a link to the you versus c-hog film please?

[bmwgs]

Certainly I agree that Co-alt and Co-E are different. 



 In the C-hog film I posted, the Hog was higher and initailly faster. In the  dive I had to slow down to allow him to catch me; a tricky proposition it is to slow down so a c-hog can catch you, without getting yourself obliterated.



No, when did I mention something like this? 

I thank you for your kind words about my game play. IMHO my choice of ride doesn't have much(yes it has some) to do with what success I have in the game. I will explain: In the MA, with it's mass of players, it is my opinion that perhaps the most important skill to have is to  be able to kill your opponent quickly. This is a combination of planning, decision making(SA),  and gunnery. With the huge amount of planes in the virtual air, even a 10 to 20 second fight is going to attract others. I strive to find a way to kill the bad guys as quickly as possible so I don't become a victim myself.

There are plenty of guys who can fly circles around me in the DA . But the DA is not the MA.  In the MA, SA plays a much bigger role. There are some great sticks in the MA who are real aces 1v1 but get frequently shot down. You know some of them as some are quite verbal on 200: "Ganger" "Coward" "let's go to the DA, I'll own you"..... as if it's not their fault they couldn't(or simply chose not to) track more than one plane.

The ace 1v1 guys that don't care that they got shot down won't be seen typing these things.

Not disagreeing, or trying to start anything, because I really could care less about the style one chooses to fight in, but wouldn't your quoted (in red) statement be the motto of a typical B&Z style player.

Just Wondering,

Fred

[Gixer]

it is my opinion that perhaps the most important skill to have is to  be able to kill your opponent quickly.

I've always prefered to play with my food first. 


<S>...-Gixer

[zuii]

Im thinking this might turn into an argument.


zuii

[lunatic1]

yes they r arguing