Author Topic: Just curious.  (Read 3972 times)

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2008, 07:55:33 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who thinks the 51 was beter than all planes or even most of that era, I was just under the impression that the 38 drivers were miserable in the cold weather compared to the 51's, which provided a little more compfort.  And I knew the 51s first entered combat with problems, but not on the scale (50%) of what the 4th had on their first flight with the 51s as you described.  Now I'm curious about it too (how many were from problems they never knew about during the plane's development, how many were ground-crew errors, etc.).  A 50% mechanical failure before they even reached combat is something I don't think I've ever heard of for any plane, and honestly there must of been some good reasons for it, otherwise I doubt any pilot would willingly want to fly one into combat after that word got around.

As with any weapons system in wartime in particular, they can get rushed into combat to try and fill a need.  What flies really well in the skies of sunny California, had to adjust to the European weather, different fuels, spark plugs, ground crews learning on the fly, pilots learning on the fly etc.

I'll use an example with the P38.  One of my favorite Groups is the 474th FG.  The 428th FS history is very detailed.  The got to England in early 44 and on March 24, 1944 got 25 new P38s assigned to the squadron. 21 J-10s, two J-5s and a single J-15.   The aircraft were grounded immediately to await combat modifications including outboard wing tanks, bomb racks etc. 

Now this is an airplane that's already been in combat in the ETO, yet these particular birds aren't ready.  Fast forward to April 15, 1944.  The squadron still hasn't flown their 38s.  Some pilots were sent TDY to other 38 groups to get some operational time.  Now the word comes down to change every engine on all 25 38s.  They'd been delivered with defects.  Many of the ground crews had never done this before.    It's April 24, 1944 when they finally fly their first operational mission.  This is a month after getting the 38s and with the airwar raging.

Now look at the 51s of the 4th.  They took them into combat with all kinds of mechanical faults and a lot of pilots were lost due to this.  The Mustangs were grounded for a few days to try and rectify the problems that included. Rough engines, glycol leaks, throwing oil, auxilary fuel tank feed problems, gun and electrical system failures, wing and motor mount bolt failures etc.

On those stand down days, all the wing bolts were replaced on the 4th Mustangs.  North American had to rush 250 sets of motor mount bolts to England as well.  Propellars were in short supply and those shipped to England were stripped and useless.  Engines were in short supply.  Getting half a squadron airborne was typical.  More then that a miracle for a while.

The real deal just wasn't as simple as us getting a new bird and flying in AH :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline lunatic1

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2008, 08:08:30 PM »
well the spitfire and the mustang were the only planes to shoot down germany's 262's
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2008, 08:33:33 PM »
well the spitfire and the mustang were the only planes to shoot down germany's 262's


According to who?

JB Wray got two 262s in a Tempest.  Two 439 squadron Tiffie pilots shared a 262.  Nowotny went down to a Jug if memory serves.  Art Jeffrey was credited with a 163 in a P38.  Me thinks you should do a bit of digging before making claims like that.
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Offline BillyD

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2008, 10:26:28 PM »
Corky is totally correct here, Typhies/Tempest flyers had a little success against the 262 and also bagged three AR234s including one by all time Tempest ace Dave Fairbanks that was at first mistook for a 262  :aok
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Offline Soulyss

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2008, 10:57:26 PM »
People are going to have to bone up on their research if you're going to out fact check Dan. :)
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2008, 11:59:49 PM »
Add the La-7 to the list of fighters that shot down a 262.
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Offline Shane

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2008, 12:00:49 AM »
 Keep in mind it was cheaper to produce then the 38 and Jug too I believe.

and again!!

More then that a miracle for a while.


must... not... submittotheurgetoragondanyeta gainforthatdamnthenthanissuet hingy.

fail   :huh

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« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 12:03:45 AM by Shane »
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Offline Kweassa

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2008, 12:43:12 AM »
Quote
Ive been studying WW-2 since I was able to read. But I guess with you I have to be literal.

The RAF saved Britain in the BOB. They didn't defeat Nazi Germany, tho I would give them credit for saving Democracy in a large part. Its true they also took part in the strategic and Tactical air offensive against German forces in Europe starting in 1943. The British had a world class aircraft industry. But the vast majority of this offensive was conducted by the US Army Air Corp.

Of which two main escort and tactical attack Jabos emerged, the P-51 mustang and the P-47. Of the two the P-47 did the Lions share of damage to the German war machine. Both in ATA engagements, bomber escort, and more importantly tactical ground strikes against the German war machine. So in essence I was saying the P-47 won the war more then the P-51 did. Dont forget the Luftwaffe, and its supporting infrastructure, was in large part destroyed while it was still on the ground. And dont forget, design changes in the P-47s gave them the long range escort ability the Mustangs had at about the same time in the air war.

By the last year of the war American fighter aircraft were simply loosed against the Luftwaffe and its infrastructure anywhere it could be found. Aircraft, air fields, training areas. No fighter excelled at all of this as much as the 47. In fact both the highest killing ace, and squadron with the most kills, flew P-47s. P-47s had a kill ratio of almost 8 to 1 in Europe. And then add in all the Holy Hell it raised as a ground attack Jabo.

So I'll say again. No other fighter or Jabo on the Allied side could hold "war winning title" more then the P-47.

Of course the P-47 didn't "win the war all alone", nor did America. I'm not talking to a kindergarten class and didn't feel I needed to point that out earlier and assumed others could figure out I was talking P-47 vs P-51, tho I guess with one or two I needed to.


 ... as if the war on the Eastern borders of the Reich, which began fully two years before the largest American bomber streams started flying over European skies, was a nice tea party amongst ground hugging grunts.

Soviet aircraft were pitted against the cream of the Reich's most powerful land AND aerial resources before the first P-47 even saw ETO for the first time, which by 1943, after the restructuring of the VVS, refused to stay a cannon fodder, and became something to fear even for the best of Luftwaffe personnel.

None of them ever got the glory spotlight as the P-47 or the P-51, but you can be sure their contribution as an aerial power striking against Nazi Germany wasn't anything less than any P-47 or P-51 - perhaps, even more. None of the VVS had any "range" issues in the first place, since the frontline was smack in front of their home fields where they were flying out of.

So whenever we feel the need to tie the word 'contribution' with the word 'Allies', let's try not to forget the war on the Eastern front.






Offline BillyD

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2008, 02:06:32 AM »
Jugs win the title of WAR WINNER on the western front easily. There were just more of them vs. their JABO multi/role contemporaries. (not to take away from a beautiful aircraft and her heroic pilots) But numbers count.

Take another famous JABO contestant, the uber sexy Hawker Typhoon. ( fact checking welcome here ) I think there were only like 3300 of them operational vs a massive force of somethin like 16000 Jugs. ( this is a round figure here of course not all these aircraft probably even flew ) Who's gonna do more damage? Who's your juggy daddy? :) I've seen alot of people say if it was necessary the Thunderbolt could have won the ETO air war by itself.

Also in terms of the BOB Ak ak hits the nail on the head, the Germans screwed themselves in multiple ways: fuel economy and time on station of the 109s fighting further from their bases being just one of the major downfalls of their campaign. (aww man that's huge) Mix this with some rediculously heroic flying by the British pilots and Hitler was doomed from the start.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 02:47:13 AM by BillyD »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2008, 02:46:05 AM »
) Who's gonna do more damage? Who's your juggy daddy? :) I've seen alot of people say if it was necessary the Thunderbolt could have won the ETO air war by itself.

Also in terms of the BOB Ak ak hits the nail on the head, the Germans screwed themselves in multiple ways: fuel economy and time on station of the 109s fighting further from their bases being just one of the major downfalls of their campaign. (aww man that's huge) Mix this with some rediculously heroic flying by the British pilots and Hitler was doomed from the start.

The irony if the BoB is that the pretty much the same tactical mistakes the Germans made during the battle, the RAF repeated during the Circus raids on main land Europe and repeated again over Dieppe.


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Offline Furball

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2008, 03:20:42 AM »
You seem to need the littlest things explained to you. Or else others are named "stupid" or "Idiotic", a theme I see to often in your posts.

Ive been studying WW-2 since I was able to read. But I guess with you I have to be literal.

The RAF saved Britain in the BOB. They didn't defeat Nazi Germany, tho I would give them credit for saving Democracy in a large part. Its true they also took part in the strategic and Tactical air offensive against German forces in Europe starting in 1943. The British had a world class aircraft industry. But the vast majority of this offensive was conducted by the US Army Air Corp.

Of which two main escort and tactical attack Jabos emerged, the P-51 mustang and the P-47. Of the two the P-47 did the Lions share of damage to the German war machine. Both in ATA engagements, bomber escort, and more importantly tactical ground strikes against the German war machine. So in essence I was saying the P-47 won the war more then the P-51 did. Dont forget the Luftwaffe, and its supporting infrastructure, was in large part destroyed while it was still on the ground. And dont forget, design changes in the P-47s gave them the long range escort ability the Mustangs had at about the same time in the air war.

By the last year of the war American fighter aircraft were simply loosed against the Luftwaffe and its infrastructure anywhere it could be found. Aircraft, air fields, training areas. No fighter excelled at all of this as much as the 47. In fact both the highest killing ace, and squadron with the most kills, flew P-47s. P-47s had a kill ratio of almost 8 to 1 in Europe. And then add in all the Holy Hell it raised as a ground attack Jabo.

So I'll say again. No other fighter or Jabo on the Allied side could hold "war winning title" more then the P-47.

Of course the P-47 didn't "win the war all alone", nor did America. I'm not talking to a kindergarten class and didn't feel I needed to point that out earlier and assumed others could figure out I was talking P-47 vs P-51, tho I guess with one or two I needed to.

I was speaking generally, not to you specifically.  Sorry - i wish i had made it more clear to save you the emotional distress clearly suffered to make you type the above post.

You do not need to lecture me on the history of the air war.

I was simply commenting on this statement: -

It was the P-47 that won the air war in Europe not the Mustang.

And i must admit.  Such statements do irritate me <S>
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Offline Dream Child

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2008, 12:45:35 PM »
I took a pony up because that's what I fly the most, know the best and be the most good to the mission. Oh, and every kill I got (including AKdream in a P47), was a plane that performs better at that altitude than mine.

Sorry, but I have to take exception to this. My engine was out after the first merge. Me trying to maneuver with no engine and crashing into the ground doesn't exactly compare airplane performance.

Offline Paladin3

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2008, 01:07:24 PM »
I'll just throw this in there: I love my pony, but it nor the Jug won the war, it was that poor crunchie on the ground. Those of you that know, remember this is coming from a 19K and a 12 series.

Offline uptown

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2008, 01:44:39 PM »
Sorry, but I have to take exception to this. My engine was out after the first merge. Me trying to maneuver with no engine and crashing into the ground doesn't exactly compare airplane performance.

 :salute fair enough. I was awarded the kill several minutes later and quite frankly was surprized. I apologize and meant no disrespect in my orginial post. :salute
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Offline Dream Child

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Re: Just curious.
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2008, 05:14:26 PM »
:salute fair enough. I was awarded the kill several minutes later and quite frankly was surprized. I apologize and meant no disrespect in my orginial post. :salute

 :salute Actually, I need to apologize myself. I assumed the P-51 I was dueling with when my engine died and I crashed was you. The film says you were the one who gave me the oil leak in the first place, when I was in the middle of a bunch of bad guys, at about 14k. It was about a 90 degree passing/deflection shot. I got at least 2 kills after that when I went to help Dogg on the deck. He was playing with 3 ponies and made the claim he needed help (he got shot down and I STILL don't believe he really needed help). I got 2 of them, then ran out of oil on the third one. You were the one that did all the damage to me, so you got the (legitimate) credit for the kill. It was a good shot on your part, but not indicative of what plane is better in this context.