Spitfire wing tips

[Squire]

Give us the Spit XII...or I will make Guppy quit.

[Charge]

Thx, Milo.

"That was done at the factory with a special tool that bent the aileron as there was no aileron trim."

So that refers just that if there is misalignment between the end and tip of aileron it is adjusted by simply holding the other end still and bending the other end with the said tool adjusting the incidence.

It is possible that after the wing tips were removed the behaviour of the aileron tip changed but I'm not at all sure if any amount of adjusting would have overcome the associated problems that could only be solved by different aileron tip design as changing it to e.g. "Frise" type.

I think that the removal of the wing tip simply did what it was supposed to i.e. boost the effectiveness of the ailerons, and surely the effect would have been better with different tip design and different hinges, alignment and adjustment, but they probably saw that the wing tip change was enough in those circumstances and it DID boost aileron effectiveness. Of course it didn't make Spit as good roller as FW but it was closing the gap and AFAIK Brits were satisfied with it.

The FW was sensitive of the adjustment of the ailerons but the dependency of these two aircraft of their wing-area vs. aileron area is very different and the bad behaviour of the FW with badly adjusted ailerons could even be associated with Frise design.

What I'm saying is that Spit wingtip and aileron design were not optimized for wingtip removal but even without further modifications it yielded improvement in rolling performance, as is logical, and Brits were quite happy with it. Crumpp probably refers that such operation would cause equal problems in Spit that FW had if it had even slightly misaligned ailerons but I don't think that would be the case. FW's aileron and wing tip design were optimal for very good rolling performance but it is possible that such advantage comes with a price, as well as such performance cannot be simply reached by simply cutting the wing tip off of any plane. But bringing the aileron to wingtip would help any plane to improve rolling performance, more of less.

-C+

[Angus]

Just a thought, but by removing the Spit tip the edge of the aileron is much closer to the washout, so possibly thereby more efective.
Just read about this on the UBI thread. Lots of rubbish there IMHO. Things like this drastically affecting C.o.G. etc, while just about anything (ordnance, ammo, fuel burn etc) would do so much more.
Longitudional issues would do the lot, which was the case with the Spit V, which was a bit to delicate, and had to have it's controls weighted (vertical) so that the aircraft wouldn't get into a 12G turn.....

[Guppy35]

Quoting Charlie Brown, a high time current Spit driver who has flown the V, IX, XIV, XVI and XVIII extensively in both full and clipped wing configuration.

"Clipped wing tips have the following effects:
-Cruise speed increases by approximately 15 mph
-Roll rate is markedly increased
-Slight increase in stall speed (3-5 mph)
-Noticable increase in drag during manouvre-eliptical wing tips really do minimize drag during manouvre
-The aircraft is easier to land because in the three point attitude the aircraft has stopped flying very shortly after touchdown.  Eliptical wings require the aircraft to be 'flown' on the ground for a considerable period after touchdown and where any bumps will make the aircraft bounce around like a spring lamb."

Quoting Alex Henshaw regarding the ailerons and the bending of them to adjust.

"After a thorough pre-flight check I would take off and once at circuit height I would trim the aircraft and try to get her to fly straight and level with hands off the stick.  The Mark V lacked aileron trim tabs and most of the new ones had a tendency to fly one wing low.  When that happened I would land immediately and taxi to one corner of the airfield where a mechanic was waiting.  He carried a special tool rather like a tuning fork, on my instructions he would bend the trailing edge of the aileron on his sde once, twice or thrice, up or down.  Then he would go around to the other side and similarly bend the opposite aileron in the other direction.  That done, I would take off again and trim the aircraft to fly hands off, to see whether the wing dropping had been cleared.  Usually it had, but if it had not the process was repeated until trim was acceptable.  Sometimes if bending was not sufficiant, it was neccesary to change the ailerons.  It was a Heath Robinson system, but it did work."

Hard to argue with Alex Henshaw when it comes to Spitfire flying

Gotta love those clipped wings...oh..and of course the Spit XII.  Prototype Spit XII DP845 in October 43.  She had tips on and off many times during her testing days in 42-43. 

[Angus]

I have a picture I took of Charlie, while walking from his Spit. PM me your email and I'll send it to you Guppy

[Squire]

Beautifull pic.

[MiloMorai]

Not even worth the effort in that regard Milo

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2601049607/p/4

More hot air from Crumpp. He uses the P-51 as an example for what has to be done when changing wing tips. Naturally there has to be some re-rigging as the tip has a hinge point for the aileron.  Then he posts the pages for changing the aileron to support his stance which has to be done before changing the wing tip.

Instruction for removal: Prior to removing the wing tip, it is necessary to remove aileron.

The aileron on the Spit is not touched when changing wing tips on the Spit.

Where he gets the 8 screws from is anybodys guess, as it clearly states 38 screws. Maybe from the '7S6-1032-8 screw'.

[Stoney]

It's all about how the wingtip was designed.  On my plane, the wingtips come off and go back on in minutes.  Its merely an exercise in how fast you can unscrew a bunch of countersunk screws. 

If the P-51 had an aileron control mechanism imbedded in the wing tip, then obviously it wasn't as easy a procedure.  If the Spit merely had wingtips held on by screws, then it would take a matter of minutes to take them off and put them on.

Sounds like Crump thinks that owning a maintenance manual makes him an expert.  Did anyone ever talk to Bodhi?  He works on warbirds for a living.

[Guppy35]

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2601049607/p/4

More hot air from Crumpp. He uses the P-51 as an example for what has to be done when changing wing tips. Naturally there has to be some re-rigging as the tip has a hinge point for the aileron.  Then he posts the pages for changing the aileron to support his stance which has to be done before changing the wing tip.

Instruction for removal: Prior to removing the wing tip, it is necessary to remove aileron.

The aileron on the Spit is not touched when changing wing tips on the Spit.

Where he gets the 8 screws from is anybodys guess, as it clearly states 38 screws. Maybe from the '7S6-1032-8 screw'.

Milo, I appreciate your persistance but you aren't going to ever get those guys to see the light

I did post the quote from the Spit V Manual regarding the wingtips already.  It is what it is.  Nothing to do with the aileron.

[jocko-]

Whoa, wait a minute, changing the wingtips in the game hangar would require a new skin due to the different nav light lenses... 

Dan, when they give us the XII I'll give it a 'Nigeria' skin 

Gorgeous pic above, great example of Merlin oil drool to aspire to vis a vis weathering.

[Bronk]

.

[Guppy35]

Whoa, wait a minute, changing the wingtips in the game hangar would require a new skin due to the different nav light lenses... 

Dan, when they give us the XII I'll give it a 'Nigeria' skin 

Gorgeous pic above, great example of Merlin oil drool to aspire to vis a vis weathering.

If you look at any photos of the XII there are no wing tip nav lights

[Angus]

In with the Mk XII!!!!!