You don't NEED a gun simplified.

[FLOTSOM]

As for suppressors, I want one just so I can plink with my .22 in my back yard without bothering the neighbors. Nothing illegal about that.

The rest of your comment is typical extremist illusion, that you need 20 hidden hand guns to be safe  . That is exactly the kind of talk that will stir up the other side to take away our guns. Besides if you have the IQ of at least a monkey and are defending yourself in your own house, you aren't going to pick up your .45 until you are out of 12 gauge shells.

honestly have you ever fired a 45? I'm not being a jerk, I'm asking because you obviously don't know much about it. a 45 does as much damage and carries as much stopping power as any 12 gauge at close range. if you get hit you sit down and stay there. hollow points will amputate limbs with one hit.

if your inside a house and shoot a 45 it will go through a wall and maybe a second one, but you wont have to replace a large section of wall after, just a touch of puddy and its all cleaned up.  

also a 45 or any hand gun is much easier to maneuver inside the confines of a door way or hallway or any enclosed eviorment. try and pull up your suppressed rifle if your ever being car jacked!

a 22 is a pistol round by the way. try a suppressor on something bigger, say a 303, 30/30 or your 12 gauge ect and you'll see that a suppressor doesn't help much if any.

but if you wanna try something neat, you can take a large potato and hollow it out on one end then stick the barrel of a shotgun in the hole. USE SHOT (BIRD PREFERRED) ONLY!!!!! amazing how quiet it is compared to having nothing. just remember to hollow it out, if you just stick it on the end of the barrel you risk causing enough back pressure in the barrel to make it explode in your face. Cherry watermelons work great to, messy as hell but funny!

i never said anyone needed the 20 hand guns, but the fact that an intruder doesn't know if you have them makes his job much harder much scarier. he doesn't know from what draw closet or small hiding place you could pull one from. knowing that you only have rifles, well indoors and at close quarters even with just a knife an intruder has the advantage. space and time of movement can be the enemy of anyone with a long weapon at close quarters.

i stand corrected about pledging to the queen, my point was that our ancestors fought a war to do away with kings and queens all together. i don't even have to acknowledge the president if i choose not to. as Americans we have the right to ignore anyone even our own government officials if we decide to. many died to ensure that we can never again be dominated by another power or forced to kneel at the feet of a tyrant.

Hog i would like to see how long any president stays in office that authorizes the bombing of any American city. i would really doubt they would find any soldiers willing to carry out the order. I'm just not seeing tanks in times square. our military is enormous, but it is very unlikely that any president could give the order to unleash it against the American populace at large. especially since the college kids were killed by the national guard back in the sixties, just not gonna happen.

hell people throw a tissy fit if swat teams are to obtrusive during an operation.

FLOTSOM

[Vulcan]

you are free because you can mail order a sound suppressor for your rifle? can you carry it concealed, besides putting it in a suitcase that is? and if you had ever fired a rifle with a suppressor on it you would realize that unless it is a small (almost pistol caliber) round then even with the suppressor its loud enough to easily hear from a distance.
....
the laws banning them were continued when improvements were made because if you are firing a weapon in a manner that is intended to be stealthy and hidden then your intentions cannot be legal.

If I had ever fired a rifle with a suppressor on it? Are you calling me a liar?

Notice I used the word suppressor, not silencer. I'm guessing you've never fired a rifle with a suppressor judging from your lack of knowledge around their use.

The suppressor takes a large amount of noise out of a shot, essentially only leaving the supersonic crack. It also takes same of the recoil out of the shot as well. Thus there are many benefits in using a suppressor. For example when hunting hearing protection is not required. If the shot is a short one then the supersonic crack is usually well muffled. It also masks the location of the shooter, handy when there are multiple targets. I shoot mainly feral goats, rabbits and hares (though deer is on the target list too). Goats will delay fleeing until they ascertain the direction of the threat, so a suppressor is extremely useful.

Many NZ hunters use suppressors now on everything from .22 through to 308's.

But, hey continue masturbating over your 20 hidden handguns you rarely if ever use

[FLOTSOM]

face it even with a suppressor a rifle of any sizable caliber is gonna be loud. but even if it was as quiet as a pin drop, I'm still not seeing you lift it up very quickly in a car jacking or in the doorway of a house with someone standing 2 feet in front of you. too big too slow, hand gun is the way to go at close quarters. each has its own place and each has its own benefits, but the option or the right to have both is best.

does sound like you are an active hunter though, start a thread and post some pics (no sarcasm). would love to see them.

FLOTSOM

[Vulcan]

face it even with a suppressor a rifle of any sizable caliber is gonna be loud. but even if it was as quiet as a pin drop, I'm still not seeing you lift it up very quickly in a car jacking or in the doorway of a house with someone standing 2 feet in front of you. too big too slow, hand gun is the way to go at close quarters. each has its own place and each has its own benefits, but the option or the right to have both is best.

does sound like you are an active hunter though, start a thread and post some pics (no sarcasm). would love to see them.

FLOTSOM

The point was not whether you could fit your 20 handguns with suppressors, the point was that though you think we bow down here in NZ whilst you do not in the USA, your rights seem impeded more than ours in some aspects of firearms

The suppressor takes an average rifle noise down to that of a 22 magnum. It makes a very big difference. Not to mention helps improve accuracy. They are becoming very very popular here (the only caveat with a suppressor is you must ALWAYS use it as it changes the PoI).

Here's a piccie of one of my favourite kills a stinkie old feral billie, it's a Savage Stevens 200 in 223, suppressed (obviously   ):

[BnZs]

The US military is so strong and has access to so much firepower that it would make any armed militia just look silly. If we were really concerned with the 2nd amendment in its original intent, we would be arming ourselves with tanks and war planes.

Currently, a militia is running the U.S. military ragged in Iraq and Afghanistan and has the public wanting to call the whole thing off.

The level of violence a government uses against citizens has direct consequences in the hearts and minds of the rest of citizenry. An unarmed rebel you can simply rough up, capture, or put away quietly. An armed and determined one you must kill...possibly creating a martyr and a domino effect whereby other citizens becomes dissenters.

You are right on one thing though...when the 2nd Amendment was written, citizens could own warships equipped with multiple banks of cannon. The natural implication of that is that a modern citizen could own a tank or warplane, not a concept I have a problem with. Now, I DO think there has to be a limit somewhere, in regards to nukes and nerve gas and what have you. I think the rule for balance should be that no arm of government should be allowed to possess, manufacture or purchase an armament the citizens are not allowed to possess.

I am highly suspicious of the rest of your post. It strikes me as what is called the "black" variety of propaganda...IOW the kind supposedly originating from within the group one is attempting to demoralize/deceive/destroy. If you are sincere, then read my first post and note that the crux of the reason I am against gun laws (and many other kinds of laws) has absolutely nothing to do with statistics.

[wrag]

The first argument gun defenders go to is the 2nd amendment. I think the 2nd amendment is outdated and misused. It was written as an attempt to keep the citizens well armed against a tyrannical government. That is, the government is here to protect the people, but the people have the right to protect themselves from the government. I'm sorry but owning a few hand guns just isn't protection from the government. The US military is so strong and has access to so much firepower that it would make any armed militia just look silly. If we were really concerned with the 2nd amendment in its original intent, we would be arming ourselves with tanks and war planes.

Another argument will be that statistics show legal gun owners committing very few gun related crimes, but the bottom line is there are a lot of criminals out there that have guns too, that are committing crimes... where do you think they got all of these guns? Hint: they were legal bought/owned at some point. There is simply no arguing that taking away guns from everyone will make it a lot harder for criminals to get their hands on them.

The old stand by argument gun defenders turn to is using a gun as home defense. However there are some interesting statistics, one says for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann, 1998). Another stat says regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home (Dahlberg, Ikeda and Kresnow, 2004). A short barreled shotgun is THE best home defense weapon, arguing for the legality of other weapons for home defense is just stupid.

I'm all for gun rights, I own several hand guns, shotguns and rifles, and love collecting and shooting them, I'm even looking at buying a AR-15 soon. I'm just tired of seeing all the same arguments from 'our' side. Honestly these types of arguments make American gun owners in general look like a bunch of emotional, paranoid, red necks that probably should have their guns taken away. While the truth is most of us responsible gun owners don't have any illusions about protecting our families with automatic assault rifles or raising a militia against our government, we simply like collecting and shooting guns!

IIRC many of those stats quoted in your post were shown to be cooked with little or even NO base.

They made em up...................

OH Come on now .... "four unintentional shootings" ???

As to tanks and such.

Part of the 2nd is SOME of our own military would refuse to attack their own people.

Ya sadly their are ALWAYS some that will attack anyone for any reason just because they're ordered to.

That type have been around for thousand of years and they always say "just following orders".

Hitler and his crew made good (perhaps BAD is a better term?) use of such while they were in power.

[Maverick]

AKHOG,

You forget that the American military is not an autonomous organization from outside the country. It's made from the same citizenry as the main population. The members of it also do not swear allegiance to the President, Congress or the Supreme Court. They swear to support and defend the CONSTITUTION, not the government. It's a concept that many don't really grasp. They also swore to uphold the amendments to the Constitution since they are a part of it. It's hardly outdated and is certainly relevant even to today's world.

Second issue. If you do not like the arguments being used by the biggest and most effective organization dedicated to maintaining the right you enjoy exercising, why don't you provide another one. All I saw you say was you didn't like it yet you bring nothing to the discussion to add to protecting your right.


Flotsam,

I am a fan of the old .45 acp and have used it for years. I also have used a shotgun. I would never ever make the claims that you did in your post. The old .45 is a good round but doesn't have instant amputation capabilities and the 12 gauge is far more effective at close range. At 50 yards yep the .45 is more likely to be more effective unless the shotgun is firing slugs. No matter what round you use in a hand gun or shoulder fired weapon it's placement of the round that counts the most.

Given a close quarters combat with a potential range of just a few feet I'd be more comfortable with a hand gun than a long gun. A handgun simply gives more maneuver room inside. I've also been trained in clearing buildings and that kind of activity. It's not something I like.

[FLOTSOM]

The point was not whether you could fit your 20 handguns with suppressors, the point was that though you think we bow down here in NZ whilst you do not in the USA, your rights seem impeded more than ours in some aspects of firearms on this point i do concede, i guess both of our governments could use a little back the f**k off juice!

The suppressor takes an average rifle noise down to that of a 22 magnum. It makes a very big difference. Not to mention helps improve accuracy. They are becoming very very popular here (the only caveat with a suppressor is you must ALWAYS use it as it changes the PoI).

Here's a piccie of one of my favourite kills a stinkie old feral billie, it's a Savage Stevens 200 in 223, suppressed (obviously   ): did it only take 1 shot to drop?? thats a big boy for such a small round! how much does he weigh? what was your range and how much difference does the suppressor make to aim adjustment?

(Image removed from quote.)

Flotsam,

I am a fan of the old .45 acp and have used it for years. I also have used a shotgun. I would never ever make the claims that you did in your post. The old .45 is a good round but doesn't have instant amputation capabilities and the 12 gauge is far more effective at close range. At 50 yards yep the .45 is more likely to be more effective unless the shotgun is firing slugs. No matter what round you use in a hand gun or shoulder fired weapon it's placement of the round that counts the most.

Given a close quarters combat with a potential range of just a few feet I'd be more comfortable with a hand gun than a long gun. A handgun simply gives more maneuver room inside. I've also been trained in clearing buildings and that kind of activity. It's not something I like.

actually a guy that i knew from federal prison won a huge lawsuit (i think it was about 500,000.00 but cant remember the exact amount) because he was shot in the upper humorous just below the knuckle of the shoulder by a police officer with a .45 hollow point. it tore away most of the meat and shattered the bone on impact. it left a few strands of flesh holding his arm to his body but for all intents and purposes his arm had been amputated by the bullet.

he won his lawsuit because the cop was determined to be using bullets (large caliber hollow points) that were excessive. if he had been using a copper jacket or standard round nose then the guy would have been seriously wounded but he would not likely have lost his arm. in my opinion he pulled a gun on a cop he gets what he gets, but we live in a law suit driven society.

another guy i know lost his left foot because he was shot in the ankle with a .45 hollow point. destroyed all the bone on impact leaving only a sack of mush inside the skin. they cut the remainder off when he got to the hospital. (no lawsuit his brother accidentally shot him while target shooting drunk, redneck family)

yes i have known a bunch of dumbarses that have managed to get themselves shot. most of them very stupidly.

when a hollow point hits a bone it mushrooms to 10x its beginning size, makes one hell of a mess. if you still got your .45 acp get some hollow points. next time you go out target practicing take a large water melon with you. find a stick about an inch or an inch and a half in diameter and drive it through the middle of the water melon. stand back a couple of feet take aim and shoot the stick through the water melon and watch what happens. (bring a towel)

yes the 12 gauge is brutal at close range, i was taking nothing away from it. what i meant to imply was that the 45 although just a pistol round, was devastating in its own right. its a tough enough round that they made the Thomson submachine gun out of it. its one of the bullets that people just don't get up from.

i found my pair of .45 rugers to be wonderful little monsters. each one holding 16 alternating rounds (1 hollow point then 1 metal jacketed)

even if a person was wearing body armor, if you put 3 into their chest it would fracture the sternum and probably stop the heart just from the concussion. the big slow round might not get inside the armor, but the transfer of the concussion into the body will usually cause internal hemraging, organ bruising or a complete organ failure.

what did you do that you had building clearing training?

FLOTSOM

[Vulcan]

flotsom um guestimate 80-100kg's ish (I just rolled him down a gully afterwards, the billies are no good for meat). 1 shot drop, 70m, popped him in the top of the neck. You can go up to 75gr in 223, but I think that was a 64gr. Suppressor changes the PoI by about 4inches @ 100m, which is about average from what I understand (btw its not due to a loss in velocity but a change in barrel harmonics, apparently you pick up some speed with a suppressor).

[bongaroo]

if your inside a house and shoot a 45 it will go through a wall and maybe a second one, but you wont have to replace a large section of wall after, just a touch of puddy and its all cleaned up.  

Oh, thats another reason I want a shotgun instead.  The birdshot isn't going to carry through a wall and kill my roomates or, if I ever have one, my family.

I'd hate to kill the intruder to find I'd caused a friendly casualty.

<S>

[FLOTSOM]

Oh, thats another reason I want a shotgun instead.  The birdshot isn't going to carry through a wall and kill my roomates or, if I ever have one, my family.

I'd hate to kill the intruder to find I'd caused a friendly casualty.

<S>

even with birdshot the risk of passing through a plaster or sheet rock wall at close range would be very high. if your worried about this then use rocksalt. very unlikely that it any pellets would pass through a wall, but on the chance that a pellet does make it through it wont penetrate the flesh of even a child deep enough to be life threatening.

rock salt is the great nonlethal equalizer.

they also have bullets now that are made out of a compressed graphite power that upon impact with any solid object turns into dust. it works wonders on people, but it wont pass through even a soft surface intact. they have shown tests that show it will disintegrate upon impacting 3 sheets of paper. creates a very painful impact wound (like getting kicked by a horse) but doesn't penetrate the body very deeply, flesh wound at best. but it will not under any circumstances pass through a wall or a window or any other obstruction.

i mention this bullet because it was originally created for and tested in .45 caliber hand guns. it was intended for use by police departments (swat teams) in California as a non lethal alternative to live rounds in hostage situations. lessons the risk of killing accidentally a hostage.

FLOTSOM

[Shamus]

honestly have you ever fired a 45? I'm not being a jerk, I'm asking because you obviously don't know much about it. a 45 does as much damage and carries as much stopping power as any 12 gauge at close range. if you get hit you sit down and stay there. hollow points will amputate limbs with one hit.

Um.....sorry no 

shamus

[FLOTSOM]

Um.....sorry no 

shamus

ok shamus ill bite, no? no what? be more specific.

[WWhiskey]

The point was not whether you could fit your 20 handguns with suppressors, the point was that though you think we bow down here in NZ whilst you do not in the USA, your rights seem impeded more than ours in some aspects of firearms

The suppressor takes an average rifle noise down to that of a 22 magnum. It makes a very big difference. Not to mention helps improve accuracy. They are becoming very very popular here (the only caveat with a suppressor is you must ALWAYS use it as it changes the PoI).

Here's a piccie of one of my favourite kills a stinkie old feral billie, it's a Savage Stevens 200 in 223, suppressed (obviously   ):

(Image removed from quote.)

nice pic
 you might want too add that a suppressor really works better on bolt action rifles, not near as good on auto's although they can help over all and at long range the noise is decreased, most people that think (silencer) think that those guns in the movies are really that quite!

[Shamus]

a 45 does as much damage and carries as much stopping power as any 12 gauge at close range.


FLOTSOM

More specific.