Anti - VVS (Russian/Soviet) Bias ?

[Vermillion]

Another thought on the "production vs prototype" issue.

Do you believe that the data that Pyro used to model the Ta152-H1 was production or prototype?

Hint 1: Check the date on the flight test documents I have posted here on the BBS, and then at the operational dates of ANY Ta152.

Hint 2: There were only 3 or 4 production Ta152-H1's (out of the total 152 H0's and H1's production of less than 50) that were made, and they were immediately shipped to the front and saw combat.

Blatant attempt to win over the Luftwaffe contingent to our cause of equalivalent standards for flight data used in FM's.  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[brady]

Vermillion, well said, it is painfully obvious that HTC is appealing to the perceived will of the masses, at least insomuch as the modeling of aircraft types is concerned. As far as the performance modeling is concerned I am still relatively new hear, but it seams as though they bust their balls to get it right and will listen to reason to adjust those figures.One can only hope that this will be the case in regard to the VVS.
 
  The only real problem I have with AH in general is that we don't have countries fighting other countries we have Chess pices.I would rather fight for Germany against Russia or japan against England kind of like we did in FA (that is the only thing i miss about FA btw...other than not knowing your opponents name till u shoot him down).
 The nice thing about having countries is that their must be a compleat plane set for all the countries represented(or a set that has types in each categories,,bomber ftr..transport...ect).HTC also knows I am sure that their is something looming on the Horizon that may impact their following...a sim that is supposed to be as beautiful, as realistic,as challenging,....but it will have countries..and compleat plane set's for them...do u think they don't know this..I can not help but think that they will not address this games shortcomings..however few they may be.

Brady

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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 02-20-2001).]

[Wisk-=VF-101=-]

I am somewhat surprised that they decided to do Yak-9T instead of Yak-9UT, because it was easier for them to do Yak-9UT (didn't have to change the aircraft shape).

Yeah, I think they could have included different variants of armament for Soviet planes just like they do for German ones. A bit strange that they didn't do it yet.

As for prototype vs production tests. First of all, as strange it might seem to some, it wasn't always the case that prototype test figures were better than those for production tests (and I have data to show that). Second, there are different kinds of production testing. For instance, one has to distinguish tests of a new production fighter and those of a used production fighter. The latter was called "control" test in VVS, i.e. they would choose a set of aircraft at random, fly them over to the flight test from the front and see how they do.
 Of course, I suppose that to keep things fair, AH team uses data for non-Soviet aircraft that were obtained in a similar way (i.e. used production or new production). I am sure they spend quite a bit of time on tangling with those issues.

Now, I only have performance data in metric system, but for those interested here they are:

Source 1 (Shavrov's book):
Yak-9U (production):
Engine: VK-107A, 1500hp
Weight: typical combat take-off - 3150
Speed: sea level - 600km/h
       top at alt - 700km/h at alt of 5.5km
       landing - 140
Climb to 5000m time: 4.1 min
Ceiling: 11900m
Range: 870m
Time for a 360 turn at 1000m: 20sec

Source 2 (TsAGI team):
Yak-9U (control test):
Engine: VK-107A, 1650hp sea level, 1500hp at best alt
Weight: 3204kg
Speed: sea level - 575km/h
       top - 672km/h at alt of 5000m
       landing - 140km/h
Climb to 5000m time: 5 min
Time for a 360 turn at 1000m: 19sec

As you can see the second Yak-9U was noticeably heavier and had worse characteristics, especially in climb.

Now the point is: how do they choose data for other, non-Soviet AC's ? Do they also choose the worst data ?
Say the same TsAGI report gives the following data for 190D-9

FW-190D-9:
Engine: Jumo-213A, 1780 sea level/1480 at alt (1600 in "combat" mode)
Weight: 4197kg
Speed: sea level - 530km/h (543km/h in WEP)
       top - 631km/h at alt of 6150m
(642km/h at alt of 6100m)
       landing - 158km/h
Climb to 5000m time: 5.6 min
Time for a 360 turn at 1000m: 22-23 sec

In other words, Dora is not as much suited for fighter vs fighter combat as Yak-9U as it looses by all parameters. The TsAGI study actually contains the diagrams of speed/climbrate/engine power performance including 109G-10. G-10s parameters become better than those of Yak-9U only above 6.3km or so. The authors mention though that they took into account only those power augmentation modes of the engine that can be sustained for at least 10min. They say 109's engines could only muster 1-2min in WEP, if longer they would risk catastrophic failure (the coolant would start boiling).
  BTW, apparently the VVS had a substantial experience in operating FW-190D-9 - Oleg Maddox, creator of "Il-2 Shturmovik" game, mentioned a squadron of new Dora's was captured intact and flown in combat against the Germans. Even larger quantities of 109s were also captured and flown by VVS in combat (usually on special missions, Gen Ye.Ya. Savitsky even became something of an expert in those and flew 109 often in mock-up practice fights, though he preferred a Yak himself).

[Fishu]

Well...
We sure need some more russian planes now when LW has couple perk toys (LW still needs Dora for better nonperk fighter)

Ruskies needs those bombers and ground attack fighters badly.
Though, their current fighters are very capable in their A/A role.
btw. I'd say that Yak 9 is better than P-51  
Maneuvers better, accerlates better.. top speed might not be that fast but it takes couple years to accerlate P-51 at that speed compared to Yak9.

About Dora, I can imagine it being 20mph slower if not 30mph, because that might well happen   (it has happend with many other planes)

Didn't R2 have those cannon pods, upping amount of cannons to 6?
or was it R6..  i don't remember.
Though, I think that LW had few times more different weapon combinations than russians..
(WHERES my MG/FF from Ju-88! I have already put my proves on the table of A-4 having option for cannon in the nose)

Soviets made bunch of planes, many of them being inferior as well.
but AH misses bombers and ground attack planes for soviets...

Just wait till Japs gets KI84.. that might happen soon  


(Maybe HTC should hire couple volunteer 3D modellers to make up the planes, that takes most of the time with planes, doesn't it  )

Fscott,

That N1K2 seems bit annoying in the AH already..
4 cannons, can dive with P47, fast as hell and still flies fine with very low speed, plus turns on a dime.
Doesn't seem too slow

[Baddawg]

Guys 1.06 will be full of new planes,I suspect 1.07 will also be rich in new plane additions.
Who knows Verm maybe more VVS is coming in future versions.
Either way you cant get everything you want in one fell swoop that goes for Luftwaffe,RAF,USAAF,VVS,IJN fans.
Its starting to sound like a 6 year olds birthday party"He got more cake than I did" and "she got the icing flower". Waaaaaaaa!!!!!!   Waaaaaaa somebody call the waaambulance!  
The truth is, everyone is going to leave the party with a good goody bag. Just wait till the parties over, untill then keep enjoying the festivities.

[Lephturn]

Verm,  <S> bud.

I see your point.    I just want to make one comment.

 

And guys, no one yet has explained to me the logic of not including the Yak-9UT (even at "production" peformance specs), since it would only have needed slight adjustments to the Yak-9U FM. Why do the Yak-9T which is significantly different in FM (engine, weight, etc.)and graphics, not to mention essentially useless to the current main arena??

I can think of a reason.    Can you say "Russian Front Scenario"?  Note, I'm not on the CM team and have no idea what they are working on next... just pointing out why they might include that particular plane.

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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome!

"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)

[J_A_B]

VERM---

I cannot speak for other aircraft, but the data used in modeling the P-51D  REALLY IS from a regular production aircraft, complete with guns and radios and such.

In fact, the airplane wasn't even new.  It was several years old serving in an ANG group.

Basically, the USAF decided it wanted to see what a stock P-51D in service could do, without being lightened or modified or anything.  So it took one out of ANG service, polished up up like they were in WW2, and flight-tested it.  The actual P-51D used in these tests still exists.  This is the source of the P-51D performance data.

This doesn't seem to have been done so publicly for the other major USAAF aircraft, probably because of lack of interest.

This performance information is widely available, and explains why the P-51D is almost always one of the best-modeled airplanes in any sim, and why WW2 sims almost always have it as one of the first planes they model.

So, *IF* the VVS aircraft are using the "worst" data possible, then so if the P-51D.  Personally, I think these airplanes just happen to be modeled more true-to-life than several others.

What makes me wonder, is the Bf-109G-10.  A captured example was flight-tested at WPAFB (Dayton), and top speed at full boost was found to be 428 MPH--considerably slower than the 450 or so AH has.  This airplane still exists, and is currently sitting on display.

The problem isn't that HTC has a grudge against VVS aircraft....it's that SOME airplanes perform too well, probably because of a lack of good, consistent data.  It is nobody's fault, just a consequence of the fact that 50-year-old plane data is a bit hard to come by.

J_A_B

[Vermillion]

Baddawg, Count the number of US planes up thru 1.06, count the number of German planes up thru 1.06. Count (it won't take you long) the number of VVS planes up thru 1.06.  Now tell me its a matter of "waaa waaaa I didn't get my toys". And along the way explain to me why the other countries have armament options, especially cannon options, and the VVS don't have a single one.  Yes I'm squeaking and moaning, but its getting old that my favorite rides are continuously getting a raw deal.

Lephturn, don't forget that I'm the head CM and oversee each and every scenario in the current pipeline. Let me clue yah..... Nope !   That would be like you not knowing who your own trainers are.

JAB, I'm just now doing some preliminary research on the issue (so I don't hang my hat on any of it), but it seems that the P-51D was extensively tested from its prototype stages thru the end of WWII. If you look in AHT, it shows many performance charts for the P-51D which match the AH charts, and in the reference section it directly references tests from 1943-45. So I highly doubt that what we see is AH is a foot weary post war ANG P-51D. Not to say that the tests your refering too didn't happen, but I don't think they are the source of our performance data.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Wanker]

Verm  

How do you know that Pyro isn't just pulling your lariat, and setting you up for a nice Yak 9UT surprise? I seem to recall a particular P-47 variant that showed up unannounced soon after a major release.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by J_A_B:
What makes me wonder, is the Bf-109G-10.  A captured example was flight-tested at WPAFB (Dayton), and top speed at full boost was found to be 428 MPH--considerably slower than the 450 or so AH has.  This airplane still exists, and is currently sitting on display.

...and I always remember that it was pain to get beyond 400mph in G10
One sources says 426mph, another says 448mph... etc.
I got quite varying speeds for it between those two values  

[Pyro]

It's not been two months since we released the last version.  So far, we've shown 6 new planes for the next version and have a couple more that we haven't shown yet.  You can think that's a good thing or you can think that it's a hundred sins of omission.  Doesn't really matter I suppose, next time it'll only be 92 sins of omission.  I harbor no illusions about being able to simultaneously and fully please the various factions, whether it's the Victorians, the superfreaks, or the nationalists.  The planeset will become large and diverse as we keep adding to it as painful as that may be.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[juzz]

COMMIEWOBBLE!!!

Hehehe, I like that one.  

Here, enjoy this pic from you-know-what:
 

OK, that was cruel.  

[RAM]

Pyro, LW fighter guys miss Fw190D9. I dont think they miss much more things now we have a Jabo too.

I have no idea on the couple of fighters you have yet to show. Maybe one is a d9 maybe not. But if it isnt, I think I speak in the name of 90% of the LW dedicated jagdflieger if I tell you that you would've made them much more happy with a Fw190D9 than with the Ta152.

Said that, I love the Ta152H and I think its a great addition. I simply think that between Ta152H and Fw190D9, the plane that most deserved to be modelled (and was most needed, frankly), was the d9.


Back to the topic, VVS planeset, I agree they lack A/G planes. I dont know about the performance of the planes, I'm not an expert. But I see that people think that there are variants missing (Yak9UT). Same happens with other nations' planesets (mostly the german) too. I think that the VVS lacks a bomber and an attack plane (Read, Tu2 or Pe2 and Il2). But other than that I dont think that the lack of a Yak9UT is to be as angry as Verm is  


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-20-2001).]

[Baddawg]

Verm I hope you did not take my post in a wrong light as it was not a flame directed towards you.

This part however was directed towards you
 

Who knows Verm maybe more VVS is coming in future versions.

The remainder  of the post was a lighthearted jab at everyone with the ever prevelent Billy Connelly Demand Schtick Mentality.         and :bite tongue smiley:<-----I need that smiley I think it would be a good one.


Opps  edited for SFUSL Society For Uniform Smiles Legends  

[This message has been edited by Baddawg (edited 02-20-2001).]

[juzz]

Homer: Marge, you're my wife, and I love you very much, but you're living in a world of make believe! With flowers and bells and leprechauns and magic frogs with funny little hats.

I think that quote somehow applies well to RAM in this situation.