Author Topic: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?  (Read 1493 times)

Offline Saurdaukar

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Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« on: April 15, 2009, 12:44:23 PM »
I know what some of you are thinking: GREAT idea!

Thanks.

I know what the rest are thinking: OMG WE HALF TWO MANY!!!1   BRING US TEH (Insert hanger-queen here)!!!11!one

Quote
Just over 900 FW 190 A-9s were built in late 1944 and early 1945. Focke-Wulf at Cottbus was responsible for most of these aircraft. Blocks built by this factory ranged from 202 360 to 207 240 (including a number of gaps). Focke-Wulf, Aslau built aircraft from W.Nr 490 020 to 490 050. An unknown manufacturer produced 560 020 to 560 030. Mimetall at Erfurt built 750 070 to 750 160. Finally, Norddeutsche Dornier at Wismar built three blocks, with aircraft from W.Nr 980 150 to 980 590 (with gaps).
(P. Rodeike, Focke-Wulf Jagdflugzeug - FW 190A, FW 190 "Dora", Ta 152H, Struve-Druck, Eutin, 1998, p.269; Note: Rodeike seems to have missed a block built by Focke-Wulf, ranging from 202 550 - 202 590.)


Quote
The Fw 190 A-9 was the last A-model produced, and was first built in September 1944. The A-9 was fitted with the new BMW 801S, called the 801 TS or 801 TH when shipped as a “power-egg”, or Kraftei, engine (an aircraft engine installation format embraced by the Luftwaffe for a number of engine types on operational aircraft, in part for easy field replacement) rated at 2,000 PS (1,973 hp, 1,471 kW); the more powerful 2,400 PS (2,367 hp, 1,765 kW) BMW 801F-1 was not available. The armour on the front annular cowling, which also incorporated the oil tank, was upgraded from the 6 mm on earlier models to 10 mm. The 12 blade cooling fan was initially changed to a 14 blade fan but it consumed more power to operate and did not really improve cooling thus BMW reverted back to the 12 blade fan. The cowling of the A-9 was also slightly longer than that of the previous Anton's due to the use of a larger, more efficient annular radiator for the oil system. The bubble canopy design with the larger head armour was fitted as standard. Three types of propeller were authorised for use on the A-9: the VDM 9-112176A wooden propeller, 11' 6" in diameter, was the preferred option however many A-9s were fitted with the standard VDM 9-12067A metal propeller and some had a VDM 9-12153A metal propeller with external, bolt on balance weights.[21] The A-9 was also designed originally as an assault aircraft, so the wing leading edges were to have been armoured; however this did not make it past the design stage in order to save weight. The A-9 was very similar to the A-8 in regards to the armament and Rüstsätze kits. A total of 910 A-9s were built between April 1944 and May 1945, mostly in Focke Wulf's Cottbus factory.
(Janowicz, Krzysztof. Focke-Wulf Fw 190, Volume 1. London: Kagero Publications, 2001. ISBN 83-89088-11-8.)

So its not a simple "A8 port" but would actually required some redesign.

However, I think its a shame that such a significant gap in performance (and role) exists between the Anton's and those "other" FW's.

We all know that the only "real" 190's are powered by BMW radials so the only question is this:

Would you like the last and best short-nosed 190 to be modeled...?

Or do you NOT like boobs?   :aok

« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 12:46:49 PM by Saurdaukar »

Offline BnZs

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2009, 12:58:02 PM »
 :rock

But even an A-5 that doesn't fly like its got speedbrakes deployed would make me happy...
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2009, 01:07:08 PM »
I like boobs...   :aok

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Offline LLogann

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2009, 01:21:09 PM »
A9...... Well, heck, that's never been asked for before.   :P

What would really be cool is if there was a "R&D" tab on the website.  Then we could go see what may or may not be upcoming.

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Offline Cajunn

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2009, 01:48:33 PM »
A9...... Well, heck, that's never been asked for before.   :P

What would really be cool is if there was a "R&D" tab on the website.  Then we could go see what may or may not be upcoming.




What are the specs on the A9, I hope its as sweet as the A5 though I find the A5 lacking a little in the speed department. :aok
“The important thing [in tactics] is to suppress the enemy's useful actions but allow his useless actions. However, doing this alone is defensive.â€

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Offline MjTalon

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2009, 02:29:18 PM »
Boobies!  :O

Oh, yea back on topic.  :D Aye for the A-9. Hell, A4 & A6 as well while we're at it.  :cool:

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Offline BnZs

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2009, 02:52:46 PM »

What are the specs on the A9, I hope its as sweet as the A5 though I find the A5 lacking a little in the speed department. :aok

Can't find any info, if I had to guess, I'd say 365mph on the deck.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Cajunn

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2009, 03:06:43 PM »
Can't find any info, if I had to guess, I'd say 365mph on the deck.


I have been looking too, and everything I find it shows it's compared to the A8, so I don't think they were much different, they seem to even had the same gun packages. And only one site that I found showed all the A models with the same speed, climb rates a even the same gun packages, so I doubt its right.
“The important thing [in tactics] is to suppress the enemy's useful actions but allow his useless actions. However, doing this alone is defensive.â€

Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645)
Japanese Samurai & Philosopher

Offline LLogann

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2009, 04:03:53 PM »
I've noticed that too today.... Kind of makes it not as sexy.


I have been looking too, and everything I find it shows it's compared to the A8, so I don't think they were much different, they seem to even had the same gun packages. And only one site that I found showed all the A models with the same speed, climb rates a even the same gun packages, so I doubt its right.
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Offline stodd

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2009, 06:18:15 PM »
 :aok
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I don't get why you even typed that, you know it's stupid.


Offline morfiend

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2009, 07:13:45 PM »
I know what some of you are thinking: GREAT idea!

Thanks.

I know what the rest are thinking: OMG WE HALF TWO MANY!!!1   BRING US TEH (Insert hanger-queen here)!!!11!one
(P. Rodeike, Focke-Wulf Jagdflugzeug - FW 190A, FW 190 "Dora", Ta 152H, Struve-Druck, Eutin, 1998, p.269; Note: Rodeike seems to have missed a block built by Focke-Wulf, ranging from 202 550 - 202 590.)

(Janowicz, Krzysztof. Focke-Wulf Fw 190, Volume 1. London: Kagero Publications, 2001. ISBN 83-89088-11-8.)

So its not a simple "A8 port" but would actually required some redesign.

However, I think its a shame that such a significant gap in performance (and role) exists between the Anton's and those "other" FW's.

We all know that the only "real" 190's are powered by BMW radials so the only question is this:

Would you like the last and best short-nosed 190 to be modeled...?

Or do you NOT like boobs?   :aok

(Image removed from quote.)



 ya sure it's all fun and games till someone looses an eye!!!    :devil

Offline moot

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2009, 07:15:37 PM »
IIRC many A8s were updated to A9 cfg, in the last year or so.
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Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2009, 10:37:20 AM »
I've noticed that too today.... Kind of makes it not as sexy.


Ive done my best to compile a short list of preliminary data.  It *is* hard to come by data and, in fact, Ive read some lesser sources that simply seem to "copy and paste" the A8 info into the A9 while only changing the engine designation (not even the power!).

Engine
The primary difference between the two, in reality, is that the A8 was powered by variants of the BMW 801D while the A9 was powered by the BMW 801S (also called the 801TS).  The 801D was rated at 1,677HP at military power and 1,953HP with MW50 while the 801S/TS was rated at 1,973HP at military and 2,170 with MW50.

There is a lot of confusion regarding the S, TS, etc radials produced during the end of the war - from what I read - and designations alone have little uniformity.  It appears that the TS designation was given to S engines installed in 190's (as opposed to bomber applications) which required enlarged oil coolers.  That said, all of the "power egg" engines were born of the 801F program, which never saw installation into aircraft (to-be-built 190A10) due to the war's end.

Beyond that, the use of either the VDM 9-112176A wooden propeller, at 11' 6" in diameter or the VDM 9-12067A metal propeller would further change performance.  According to most sources, the A8 "could" use the improved propeller but the A9 was designed with it in mind.

Weight
Again, here, sources vary but weight is another factor worthy of mention.  Per the majority of documents, the A8 weighed 7,652lbs empty, 9,100lbs loaded and had a maximum allowable weight of 10,800lbs.

After a brief search, I could not find specific A9 weights.  However, it is known that the leading edge armor never made it past the design stage.  Lets just add 100lbs to account for the upgraded cooling system for general purposes and arrive at a loaded weight of 9,200lbs.

Armament
The A9 was fully customizable, from a weapons standpoint, on the ground, by the crew, prior to each sortie.  By that I mean not only could the outboard 151/20's be removed BUT several sources also state that the 13mm cowl guns could ALSO be deleted at the pilot's discretion!

Backing up into weight, someone (like many of us in this thread) who adores the 2 cannon A5 configuration but would rather blow off the weight of the worthless MG17's would be excited by this.

Airframe
Two items of significance come into play here which would not make the A9 a simple "A8 port" in the game.  The nose would have to be elongated, as previously stated, to account for the somewhat larger engine and cooling system but, more importantly, MANY of the A9's were used as field test beds for the tail section ultimately installed on the TA152.  See?  Your eyebrow is raised.  That much rudder authority in a short nosed 190?  Tell me more!


The Summary of the VERY, VERY Basic, Took Me 15 Minutes to Look This Stuff Up Post

In very simplistic terms, here is how I would see the 190A9 fitting into AH.  Ill use the A8 as my benchmark since we all understand what it is and is not.

Take a 190A8 and increase its military power by 296HP and its MW50 power by 217HP.  So, In fact, the A9's 801S makes more power on military settings than the A8's 801D makes on WEP settings.

Oh but what about the increase in weight?  True - and I wish I could find more info in the short time Ive dedicated to this post.  But, lets just say that 100 pounds for an upgraded cooling system is about right.

That would give P:W ratios as follows (Loaded weighs of 9,100lbs and 9,200lbs used):

190A8 Military:  5.42lbs per HP
190A8 MW50:  4.65lbs per HP

190A9 Military:  4.66lbs per HP
190A9 MW50:  4.23lbs per HP

Thats a significant improvement.

Coupled with that the ability to not only remove the outboard 151/20's but ALSO the 13mm cowl guns and suddenly the power to weight ratio even looks "fighter-like."

Finally - should HTC model the 190A9 with the TA152 tail control surfaces and the improved propeller, we suddenly have an aircraft which, although resembles the 190A8 in appearance, flies drastically differently.

I think it would make an awesome addition and I think it would see significant use in the MA.

If there is a high level of interest, Ill spend to time to go digging for more detailed information.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 10:42:38 AM by Saurdaukar »

Offline morfiend

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2009, 03:48:03 PM »
Mazz, excellent  research so far!

 I couldn't agree more with the addition of any LW aircraft.
 The german planeset is sorely lacking in high alt A/C.

 1 question for you Mazz,what's the FTH for the A9?

Offline moot

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Re: Hi there. We need a new Focke Wulf. How about the A9?
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2009, 03:59:02 PM »
I didn't know about the 152 tail being used like that. I don't know if it'd have to be exactly like the 152's rudder authority, but it was most likely a very useful improvement if it didn't move the CG too far back (esp if it was the wooden type).. That and the cowl gun delete package.. It would make a very nice bird.
The powerloading figures for people used to seeing them in this metric:
(HP/k lbs)  A8  A9  D9
MIL  184  216  182
WEP  215  236  218
Note that's better thrust to weight (30hp short on wep and a couple hundred pounds lighter) than a "loaded weight" 190D9.  All planes actually perform better than that if you account for more typical MA fuel loads etc.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 05:59:30 PM by moot »
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