What we need are some What If planes

[Die Hard]

No, the He 219 was powered by the DB 603. The A-0 and A-2 had 603A's the A-5 and A-7 had 603E's. Jezus, just look at the first chart you posted where it says "A-5: 603E". 

[Die Hard]

Because that is what powered the He217A-7.

He 217 ? 

[MiloMorai]

Maybe you should do some better research into what engines powered the He219.

The production A-7s had the DB603Gs replaced by Jumos 213Es.

[MiloMorai]

He 217 ? 

So I made a typo. Big F'in deal.

[Die Hard]

No, the He 219A-7 had Daimler-Benz DB 603E's just like the A-5. Six He 219A-7/R5 aircraft were powered by 1,900 PS Junkers Jumo 213E engines. A single He 219A-7/R6 was produced, equipped with 2,500 PS Junkers Jumo 222A/B engines, as was a single three-crew He 219B-1 which was to use the same powerplant but instead used DB 603Aa engines. The rest of the A-7-reihe had DB 603E's.

[moot]

I'd prefer the 2x103 + 2x108 + 2x151, or did you not notice that one?

I noticed it, but in the context of..

Hey, why are you trying to make this a 219 vs 410 thread? The 410 was already listed, I added the 219. What's your problem with that?

My argument is that the 219 isn't going to be in for a long while, if ever, because it's too redundant, pretty crappy, and has a long line of other more interesting models ahead of it.

I don't think so.

etc.  The 219 is absolutely in competition with the 410 for inclusion as a

Like I said earlier, I think there is room for a 400+ mph 6 cannon armed (8 with the Shrage Musik) twin in the MA. Especially one that looks so awesomely incredibly cool.

Which leads to the 219 being mostly redundant and certainly uncompetitive as a "maneuverable" fighter compared to the (your choice of comparison) P38, mossie, and Me410.

The 410 isn't a 400 mph aircraft. The fastest the A- and B-reihe got was in the high 380's. Only the stripped down (pilot only, no rear guns, no armor, 4x151) high altitude version with GM-1 ever flew faster than 400 mph.

High 380s are close enough to 400 in this context: "A 400mph 6-cannon german twin".  The 219 itself is "400" on paper only.  That's barely 400 ("405"), and with most likely a sluggish acceleration to get there.   That's the context.

Try to keep up with the discussion please; I was comparing the 219 to the P-38, not the 410. However, I will note again that you missed the 219's 2x103 loudout which is in fact also adds a couple of 108's in comparison to the 410's 2x103 + 2x151 package.

Context again.  2x108s, or a pair of 108s, 103s, and 151s are still on a heavy, slow, and huge airframe. That's not competitive as a ground attacker. The 410 pretty much matches the 219's lethality, and offers more options on top of that.

410: 2x103 + 2x151 +2x131
219: 2x108 + 2x103 + 2x151 (+ 2x108 in Shrage Musik)
Difficult to beat that combo in lethality.

Nope.

On a better airframe, offensively and defensively.

[Die Hard]

I noticed it, but in the context of..etc.  The 219 is absolutely in competition with the 410 for inclusion...

In competition? This is not a contest, this is a "wish list" of aircraft thread.

...compared to the (your choice of comparison) P38, mossie, and Me410.

You chose to compare the 219 to the Me 410, Mosquito and P-38. You posted that table. I just corrected your rather misleading table to something more representable of MA performance.

High 380s are close enough to 400 in this context: "A 400mph 6-cannon german twin".

No it isn't.

The 219 itself is "400" on paper only.

No it wasn't.




Which one of those combos do you think beats the 2x103, 2(4)x108, 2x151 package on the He 219A-7/R1?

[Die Hard]

Moot, those 410 weapon packages don't look right to me. I'll have to dig up some of my books.

[moot]

In competition? This is not a contest, this is a "wish list" of aircraft thread.
You chose to compare the 219 to the Me 410, Mosquito and P-38.

The wing loading is a bit high when it is carrying extra guns and with full fuel. With a light loadout (in AH you don't have to fly around for hours looking for bombers) the Uhu's wing loading isn't much worse than a P-38L's. It wouldn't match the 110 in usage, no. However that's a hard plane to beat, and I'm sure the 219 would find its use as a 400 mph bomber hunter or B&Z fighter. Its immense coolness factor will attract players as well. I'd like the last production model, the A-7; also the most produced variant (even if we're only talking about 150 planes or so).

Misleadingly out of context.

You posted that table. I just corrected your rather misleading table to something more representable of MA performance.

It's not misleading at all.. I'll redo it in a bit, with proper weights breakdown.  The 219 uses the SAME engines, weighs as much empty as the 410 weighs loaded, has plain flaps and no leading edge slats to help combat handling, and you're pretending that it's comparable to the 38. That's misleading. 
The 410 and 219 are in competition because (something like 3d time repeating this) of the context of the plane set right now. Huge gaps in major actors' (Russia, Japan) plane sets, and a redundancy with the 410 that the 219 can't come out on top of.  Hence, the consequent argument that the 410 isn't an urgently needed addition, and that once it's added it will make the 219 even less attractive since it's negatively redundant; except for the novelty of shrage muzic (which Ju88s and 110s could add themselves) and appealing esthetics.  The 410 has more novelty, it matches esthetics, has more and more varied loadouts, is a better dogfighter (incl airbrakes, leading edge slats, and glass cockpit for lead shots), has more functionality (air, ground, BK5 sniping), and is more survivable.
I don't know how many times these things need to be said for you to concede that the 219 isn't going to show up anytime soon.  It was hashed out here and here.

Which one of those combos do you think beats the 2x103, 2(4)x108, 2x151 package on the He 219A-7/R1?

Not 4x108. The two shrage cannons don't fire forward.  Forward and canted guns are never fired at the same time.
The BK5 gun on its own is as powerful as 2x108 and 2x103.

[Die Hard]

The 219 uses the SAME engines...

No it didn't. Will you please get at least one fact straight? The He 219A-5 onwards used DB 603E engines which are slightly more powerful than the DB 603A's used by the Me 410A/B.

...has plain flaps and no leading edge slats to help combat handling...

The 410 has plain flaps, and the He 219 didn't need slats; it was stable at low speeds without them (the 410 wasn't).

The 410 and 219 are in competition because...

I don't care about silly forum politics or which plane gets modeled next. I just added the He 219 to a wish list. Ultimately Hitech Creations decides which aircraft gets added and which don't. I'm really not interested in your opinion on how they think.

Not 4x108. The two shrage cannons don't fire forward.  Forward and canted guns are never fired at the same time.

That's why I put the 4 in parenthesis with a 2 in front of it. I was hoping you'd understand that, but alas.

The BK5 gun on its own is as powerful as 2x108 and 2x103.

No it wasn't. The BK 5 KWK 5 had a rate of fire of only one shot per second. In one second 2x103 and 2x108 fires a total of 34 30mm shells.

[Die Hard]

Misleadingly out of context.

No. It is completely true. With the same fuel load (I chose 200 gallons), the He 219 actually had a lower wing loading than the P-38L.

[moot]

No it didn't. Will you please get at least one fact straight? The He 219A-5 onwards used DB 603E engines which are slightly more powerful than the DB 603A's used by the Me 410A/B.

  You mean a 50HP difference is a significant difference?

The 410 has plain flaps, and the He 219 didn't need slats; it was stable at low speeds without them (the 410 wasn't).

The 219 was underpowered. Stable or not it's going to be dogmeat in a knife fight.  P38s and Mossies are already lumbering targets compared to the rest of the plane set.. And you say the 219 could compete... Not a chance.  The 219 doesn't have saving graces like the 38 and Mossie.

I don't care about silly forum politics or which plane gets modeled next. I just added the He 219 to a wish list.

You didn't "just" add the 219 to the wishlist. You argue that it's comparable to the 38 in maneuverability (what happens to a 38 with torque, plain flaps, and 5,500 extra lbs?), that it has more firepower than the 410 (arguable in practice), that it's 400mph-class while the 410 isn't (arguable again, only a dozen MPH difference and huge heft), etc, and that given these facts, isn't "way down on the list".

Ultimately Hitech Creations decides which aircraft gets added and which don't. I'm really not interested in your opinion on how they think.

My opinion is accurate. Pyro mentionned the 410 a couple of times..  The 410 made the public vote.. The 219 didn't. It's way down on the list for reasons I've repeated 3-4 times.

That's why I put the 4 in parenthesis with a 2 in front of it. I was hoping you'd understand that, but alas.

I understood it fine and you know it. SM guns don't mean any more for combat than rear guns on the Me110 do.  Unless you can fire em from the cockpit and not from a gunner position (auto-pilot automatically toggles); maybe have them fire when looking fwd+up.  Even then, it's a practical firepower of only 2x108.

No it wasn't. The BK 5 KWK 5 had a rate of fire of only one shot per second. In one second 2x103 and 2x108 fires a total of 34 30mm shells.

Again paper figures. Practical context? What do you do with 103s and 108s that can't be done with 6x20mm or 2x103, or BK5 plus a couple more cannons?  Shoot bombers?  The 410 does that just as well (as many 103s as the 219) from afar, or better (BK5, less target area, better power loading), and from up close it's really a dodgy factor since the 219 is big and slow, and the BK5 loadouts will get the job done just as well (overkill.).  Against fighters?  What's the significance of 4x108 when you're bigger and slower than a mossie? The 110 demonstrates this easily.. 4x20 and 2x30, and how many of them do you see in AH dogfights? 103s are meaningful, but again the context is compared to the 410 - there's no net advantage for the 219. Anything the 219 does, the 410 can do as well or better.

No. It is completely true. With the same fuel load (I chose 200 gallons), the He 219 actually had a lower wing loading than the P-38L.

No?  There's no contradiction in it being factual and out of context.  The 219 having lower wing loading than the 38 is cherry picking.  The big picture is that the 219 is dogmeat.

[Die Hard]

Ok, here are the forward firing gun packages that actually saw service with the Me 410:

A-reihe
2x17 + 2x151 internal.

A-1/U2
2x151 mounted in a Waffen Behälter 151A in the bomb bay.

A-1/U4
1xBK 5 in the bomb bay (MG17's removed in later versions).

A-2
2x103 in the bomb bay (MG17's removed).

A-2/U4
Similar to A-1/U4.


B-reihe
2x131 + 2x151 internal.

B-1/U2
2x151 mounted in a Waffen Behälter 151A in the bomb bay.

B-1/U4
Internal guns were all replaced by a BK 5 cannon + two 20 mm MG 151 cannon mounted in Waffen Behälter 151A in the bomb bay.

B-2/U-1
2x151 in ventral gondola.

B-2/U-2/R-2
2x108 in bomb bay (MG131's removed).

B-2/U-2/R-3:
2x103 in bomb bay (MG131's removed).

B-2/U-3/R-5:
4x151 in bomb bay (MG131's removed).


A singular Me 410B-2 was modified in the field to carry the U-3/R-5 package and the U-1 gondola for a total of eight MG151's (including internal armament).

[moot]

Post your sources and make an argument out of that list.

[Die Hard]

 You mean a 50HP difference is a significant difference?

It is a difference, i.e. it is not the "SAME". And since we're talking about twins, it's a 100 hp difference.

The 219 was underpowered.

No it wasn't. It had roughly the same power loading as the P-47D. I'm sure climb and acceleration would be similar too. I've never heard the P-47 being described as "underpowered".

...that it has more firepower than the 410 (arguable in practice).

It has more firepower. There's no arguing the numbers.

You argue that it's comparable to the 38 in maneuverability...

No, I've never argued that. I said it had a comparable wing loading to the P-38, in context to Wmaker's claim that the He 219 had "rather heavy wing loading".

...that it's 400mph-class while the 410 isn't (arguable again, only a dozen MPH difference and huge heft)...

Again, nothing to argue, just hard numbers. And it is more like two dozen (with a clean 410, no gondolas or protruding guns). Weight (heft) has little or no impact on top speed, and the weight difference with similar guns and fuel isn't that much.

SM guns don't mean any more for combat than rear guns on the Me110 do.  Unless you can fire em from the cockpit and not from a gunner position (auto-pilot automatically toggles)...

They were fired by the pilot.

Even then, it's a practical firepower of only 2x108.

LOL That's the first time I've heard/read anyone say "only" two MK 108's! Two 108's will rip any bomber apart with a one second burst, and with the Jazz Music it can be done quite a lot safer compared to a conventional attack.

...and from up close it's really a dodgy factor since the 219 is big and slow...

The 219 is faster than the 410, so what does that make the 410? Big and slower?  

What's the significance of 4x108 when you're bigger and slower than a mossie?

Bigger yes, slower no. The 219 is faster than the Mosquito F.B VI (as modeled in AH). Why can't you get these simple facts straight?

The 110 demonstrates this easily.. 4x20 and 2x30, and how many of them do you see in AH dogfights?

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I see plenty of 110's in dogfights, especially when I'm in one.

Anything the 219 does, the 410 can do as well or better.No?

No. With more guns, more weight and more speed the 219 is clearly the superior B&Z'er. That's what made the P-47 great, guns, speed and inertia. Not power loading or wing loading.

The big picture is that the 219 is dogmeat.

Against the top five most used MA fighters I'm fairly certain that both the 219 and 410 will be "dogmeat".