Author Topic: What we need are some What If planes  (Read 11936 times)

Offline moot

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2009, 10:06:17 PM »
      He219   Me410   Mossie   P38   
wingload
   empty   38   33   3139   
   t/o   54   63   4053   
Powerload (hp / klbs)
   empty   190   270   230273   
   t/o   135   166   178200   
Weight(k lbs)
   empty   18.4   13   14.312.8   
   t/o   26   21   18.517.5   
Area      479   390   454327   
Power2x   1750   1750   16451750   

The P38's wing loading isn't an accurate indicator of maneuverability on its own. The 38 actually has one of the worst maneuverabilities of all fighters, if you ignore its flaps. Take that same 38, increase weight by 30% (for about 66% of the 38's power/weight ratio), surface area to a bit bigger than the Mossie, replace the left engine with a right one, replace the fowler flaps with plain ones, remove boosted ailerons, don't add leading edge slats nor dive brakes, and you have more or less the real context to that "wingloading comparable to the 38's".  Its armament is pretty much the same or worse than the 410 (exception being the Shragemuzic 2x108s) and it's a huge target (1.5x as large as the "huge" P38's target area). It would be dogmeat.. Except for the 2x108 shragemuzic guns, redundant dogmeat.
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Offline Caldwell

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #91 on: May 20, 2009, 04:20:23 AM »
Even the Aussies wouldnt fly it. Just like they wouldnt have in real life had they something better. Didnt they replace them with P-40s or wildcats ?

Now the Beaufighter? I think that would be competative as a strike air craft. Plus its so cool looking.

I believe the Boomerang was quite popular in the ground attack role.

Offline lyric1

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #92 on: May 20, 2009, 06:54:27 AM »
I believe the Boomerang was quite popular in the ground attack role.
Yep I would agree most every picture I have of Boomerangs are embedded in the ground literally.  :)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #93 on: May 20, 2009, 07:59:47 AM »
      He219   Me410   Mossie   P38   
wingload
   empty   38   33   3139   
   t/o   54   63   4053   
Powerload (hp / klbs)
   empty   190   270   230273   
   t/o   135   166   178200   
Weight(k lbs)
   empty   18.4   13   14.312.8   
   t/o   26   21   18.517.5   
Area      479   390   454327   
Power2x   1750   1750   16451750   



What you have proved with that nicely formated table of yours is that you can't do math. ;)

Here, let me fix it for you:


      He219   Me410   Mossie   P38   
wingload
   empty   38   33   3139   
   t/o   54   53   4053   
Powerload (hp / klbs)
   empty   190   270   230273   
   t/o   135   166   178200   
Weight(k lbs)
   empty   18.4   13   14.312.8   
   t/o   26   21   18.517.5   
Area      479   390   454327   
Power2x   1750   1750   16451750   


Now, there are a few more things that needs correcting. The internal fuel load of the four aircraft are vastly different:

He 219: 713 gal
Me 410: 638 gal
Moss: 543 gal
P-38: 410 gal

So for a more MA consistent comparison lets reduce all fuel loads to 100 gallons per engine.


      He219   Me410   Mossie   P38   
wingload
   empty   38   33   3139   
   MA   47   47   3650
Powerload (hp / klbs)
   empty   190   270   230273   
   MA   160198199212
Weight(k lbs)
   empty   18.4   13   14.312.8   
   MA   22.5   18.5   16.516.5   
Area      479   390   454327   
Power2x   18001750   16451750   


And let's add something rather important:

      He219   Me410   Mossie   P38   
Max speed
mph407385378420

It is pretty clear that the P-38 is the fastest and the best energy fighter of the lot. The Mosquito is clearly the best turner, but it is a bit slow. The 410 is probably the best ground attacker of the lot and has very good power loading, equal to the Moss and P-38. The He 219 is the second fastest of the lot, but turns better than the P-38 (same wing loading as the 410) and has vastly superior firepower. The P-38's Fowler flaps won't add that much area; at best they will equalize the wing loading advantage of the 219/410.

As for armament:

He 219A-7/R1
Two 30mm Mk 108 Cannon in wing roots. Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in belly tray. Two 30mm Mk 103 Cannon in belly tray. Two 30mm Mk 108 cannon in Shrage Musik mount.

He 219A-7/R2
Two 30mm Mk 108 Cannon in wing roots. Two 20mm MG 151/20 Cannon in belly tray. Two 30mm Mk 108 Cannon in belly tray. Two 30mm Mk 108 cannon in Shrage Musik mount.


Like I said earlier, I think there is room for a 400+ mph 6 cannon armed (8 with the Shrage Musik) twin in the MA. Especially one that looks so awesomely incredibly cool.

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Offline moot

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #94 on: May 20, 2009, 08:56:53 AM »
Cant do math -  more like I fudged combining three different charts from different figures late at night, so you'd bite the bullet and reply in substance.

The 219 isn't going to be a good turner.  Never with neither leading edge slats, nor that power loading, nor plain flaps. It'll have lots of lift to play with, but that's about it. It'll be sluggish. That it's a good BNZer is no sure thing since other than a good top speed hinting at good aerodynamics (how much speed does the 410 lose to those barbettes?), it's just a big anchor.  It'll have good momentum once it gets going, but it'll be a big fat target otherwise.  4x108 + 2x 20mm is interesting, but not enough to outweigh the negatives.  Especially not when the 410 has such a better powerloading and weapon loadouts.  Pretty much every gun would be available: MG17, 131, 151/20, 108, 103, and BK5.  The only thing the 410 loses out to the 219 is the comparatively light weight 4x108 loadout (nullified by the 219's total heft) and shragemuzic.  In comparison, the 410 covers a way larger spectrum of gun configurations and ordnance.  Everything from light weight to extra heavy (e,g, BK5+2x103, 6x151, 2x103+2x151).

Quote
Like I said earlier, I think there is room for a 400+ mph 6 cannon armed (8 with the Shrage Musik) twin in the MA. Especially one that looks so awesomely incredibly cool.
That sounds like the 410, IOW redundant.  The 410 looks just as cool, has a glass cockpit, better gun options, can serve as ground attacker, will probably handle dogfighting better overall (slats, smaller target, and more excess thrust) although be a sharper more nervous thing..  All things considered, it's not surprising that HTC never mentionned the 219, but did have the 410 in the last poll and that it was mentionned by Pyro a number of times.

The 219 just isn't going to happen any time soon. Two 400mph six-cannon german twins aren't going to be added anytime near each other when there's so many other planes to add, when there's already one in the game, and when one of the two's both redundant and so much less attractive other than visually (and even then, the 410 is just as pleasing and has its own trump card - glass cockpit).  Other than 4x108 and shragemuzic, the 219 has no functional advantage. It would be dogmeat while the 410 would be both more nimble (slats, dive brakes, lighter), punchier thrust-wise, and have the best guns in the whole game (on introduction and arguably forever after).  A pair of 103s will trash pretty much everything they touch, and they'll touch pretty much everything thanks to ballistics like 50 cals.  The 219 in comparison is just dogmeat.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 09:21:08 AM by moot »
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Offline moot

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #95 on: May 20, 2009, 10:11:37 AM »
Quote
The He 219 [...] has vastly superior firepower.
No. It has one loadout that edges out the 410 in terms of lethality, but with crappy ballistics. The 6x20 and 2x103 loadout on the 410 are more useable against fighters and bombers, and the BK5 even more so on large/slow targets.
Quote
The He 219 [...] turns better than the P-38 (same wing loading as the 410)[...]. The P-38's Fowler flaps won't add that much area; at best they will equalize the wing loading advantage of the 219/410.
What game are you playing, where the 38's fowlers "don't add that much area" and "at best" equalize the wingloading "advantage" of the 219 and 410?  Not only are fowler flaps an order of magnitude better than the 219 and 410's plain flaps, but the 38 and 410's power loading leave the 219 in the dust, the 410 has slats, and the 38's torquelessness multiplies the fowler advantage even more.  The 219 isn't contending in any category but how well it glides.

It's going to be dogmeat. The 38 is already a big target.. It would be dogmeat too if it weren't for torquelessness, fowlers, and its powerloading to push it out of its own way. You're saying that without all those assets and with an even larger target area, it'd be competitive.. Not a chance.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 10:16:01 AM by moot »
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #96 on: May 20, 2009, 10:21:42 AM »
The fastest your He219A-7 could do was 580kph(360mph) @ 6Km and 460kph(285mph) @ 0Km.

Offline moot

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #97 on: May 20, 2009, 10:34:56 AM »
Hey Milo, can you give your refs for that?


Quote
The 38 is already a big target.. It would be dogmeat too if it weren't for torquelessness, fowlers, and its powerloading to push it out of its own way.
A side by side comparison of the 219 and 410's target areas:



« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 10:57:16 AM by moot »
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #98 on: May 20, 2009, 10:41:31 AM »
moot, it is from Roland Remp's book on the He219.

A data sheet


Offline moot

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #99 on: May 20, 2009, 10:56:20 AM »
Great, thanks :)
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #100 on: May 20, 2009, 10:56:35 AM »
4x108 + 2x 20mm is interesting, but not enough to outweigh the negatives.

I'd prefer the 2x103 + 2x108 + 2x151, or did you not notice that one?


Especially not when the 410 has such a better powerloading and weapon loadouts.  Pretty much every gun etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Hey, why are you trying to make this a 219 vs 410 thread? The 410 was already listed, I added the 219. What's your problem with that?


The 219 just isn't going to happen any time soon. Two 400mph six-cannon german twins aren't going to be added...

The 410 isn't a 400 mph aircraft. The fastest the A- and B-reihe got was in the high 380's. Only the stripped down (pilot only, no rear guns, no armor, 4x151) high altitude version with GM-1 ever flew faster than 400 mph.


No. It has one loadout that edges out the 410 in terms of lethality, but with crappy ballistics. The 6x20 and 2x103 loadout on the 410 are more useable against fighters and bombers...

Try to keep up with the discussion please; I was comparing the 219 to the P-38, not the 410. However, I will note again that you missed the 219's 2x103 loudout which is in fact also adds a couple of 108's in comparison to the 410's 2x103 + 2x151 package.

410: 2x103 + 2x151 +2x131

219: 2x108 + 2x103 + 2x151 (+ 2x108 in Shrage Musik)

Difficult to beat that combo in lethality.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #101 on: May 20, 2009, 11:08:55 AM »
moot, it is from Roland Remp's book on the He219.

A data sheet

(Image removed from quote.)

So it did 360 mph at Kampfleistung. The chart don't tell us the speed at Notleistung. At Kampfleistung the DB 603E only developed 1575 PS, not the 1800 it got at Notleistung.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2009, 11:17:33 AM »



Offline Die Hard

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #103 on: May 20, 2009, 11:21:19 AM »
Milo, why are you posting charts of the Jumo 213?
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: What we need are some What If planes
« Reply #104 on: May 20, 2009, 11:24:38 AM »
Because that is what powered the He217A-7.