Brewster Buffalo

[Rich46yo]

See Rule #4

[Sakai]

Is this really true?  I mean...really?

- oldman

Maybe this:

Estonians hated Russians.  Anyone helping Russians die was OK with them from what I garnered form the Estonians who lived at my place for two summers.  These two young women's eyes would flash if you asked about Russia at all, they are hot with hatred.  They heard something about Russian problems they would gloat.  I don't think they could have found any fault with anyone who did anything remotely connected to be anti-soviet.  

[Wmaker]

See Rule #4

Care to elaborate? Why am I a fool?

[Lusche]

This is a funny thread about... wait.. what was it about?

[Wmaker]

This is a funny thread about... wait.. what was it about?

Ditto, like I've said again and again, I knew before hand this was going to happen. That's why I thought "Finland in WWII" should be discussed elsewhere.

[BlauK]

Just a few more factual issues. I'll disregard the childish brawlings


1)
Dues: "war indemnity", "war reparation"

During the heaviest years of payments, 1945-1949, about 15-16% of Finnish government expenses consisted of these war payments, "fines" to Soviet Union. Last train taking goods to Soviets crossed the border in September 1952. Counted in year 2003 value the total payments were about 4 Billion euros.

2)
When Barbarossa began, the attack against Soviet Union did not not originate from Finland. LW planes flew from Eastern Prussia and made a stop in Finland on their way back home. You may argue, that there is no difference. Yes, surely Finns knew about it and allowed it. I just wanted to correct the fact. Finns did not technically start the aggressions against Soviets.

3)
Like already stated several times, it was either side with Hitler, side with Stalin, or curl over and die. E.g. USA had no life threatening need to side with Stalin, but they did. I'd see that much more opportunistic than Finns taking all the help they could from Hitler.
For Finns there were only unpleasant options available. Standing behind righteous principles, "Chivalry and honour till death" is not from real life when one's existence and independence are in jeopardy.


I hope we get to fly teh Brewster soon

[Rich46yo]

See Rule #4

[Oldman731]

I recommend this book to anyone interested in WW2: http://www.amazon.com/Loyalty-My-Honor-Gordon-Williamson/dp/0760300127

Thanks, Furball, but this is nothing new really.  Paul Carrell was writing similar stuff back in the 1950s.  I've never really figured out why people keep trying to put a nice-guy face on the Waffen SS when the well-documented facts are so blatantly to the contrary. 

Often I find that the first clue to a whitewash is something like "it isn't black and white, it's more nuanced shades of gray."  I was just wondering if the Finns really were proud of their SS troops or if that was a translation problem.  I guess I got my answer.

- oldman

[Furball]

You're welcome.

Not all SS were war criminals though.  Majority of the Waffen SS were frontline combat troops.  There were regiments of the SS that took part in atrocities, but the majority were just very tough combat troops and were just like any other elite force during the war.  That is a nice book because it is all personal accounts of the war.  Whether you like the SS or not, it is still a good resource for learning about the war from another perspective.

[A8TOOL]

This is a funny thread about... wait.. what was it about?

Well it took a few turns but it's supposed to be about the Brewster. I enjoyed finding out about Finland WWll history and it was very interesting to learn about how the American Brewster was sold to Finland and why the swastikas were on it.

Wmaker may have been right, but I did learn a lot.

Question for me now is, why did HTC allow a plane that only had a production of 44 planes enter our plane set when so many other late war models having higher production and service values were not allowed over the last 8 years. Seems there were many more American Brewsters produced and serving near that time period and it is more known to be an American plane. Is it because it's a better model and might be able to compete a little easier or ...?

Seems like Japan had about as many of them. I wonder what changes were made to the ones they captured and were using? (I'll have to look that up)

Also, where will it be placed in FSO? On the Axis side I would imagine... unless the FSO date coincided with the Finns  leaving Hitler already.

[BlauK]

Would it not depend on what the particular FSO event portrays... At Eastern Front it is on Axis side, at PTO on Allied side, or mayby on both sides if Japanese are assumed to use captured Dutch planes. Similarly Hurricanes can be on both sides at Eastern Front or Ponies and Corsairs can fight against each other in South America

[A8TOOL]

Would it not depend on what the particular FSO event portrays... At Eastern Front it is on Axis side, at PTO on Allied side, or mayby on both sides if Japanese are assumed to use captured Dutch planes. Similarly Hurricanes can be on both sides at Eastern Front or Ponies and Corsairs can fight against each other in South America

WOW      That is just so screwed up.. hehehe   For the game it sounds fun tho. Brings a lot of why questions up..heheh

 

[Motherland]

Seems there were many more American Brewsters produced and serving near that time period and it is more known to be an American plane.

It's not more known as an American plane. The Buffalo's service in American hands is as a footnote of failure. On the other hand, many of the highest scoring aces of all time flew the Brewster in Finnish service.

[Furball]

The Brewster was despised by the RAF too.  I read a bit from the pilot of one a couple of days ago, the undercarriage lights didn't work and the wheels kept dropping down, the only way he could tell they were up was by looking at the daylight between the gaps in the panels on the wings.  It seemed there were numerous other Brewsters in the same flight who had the same trouble.

[Wmaker]

Hi TOOL,

Were the links I posted helpful?

Question for me now is, why did HTC allow a plane that only had a production of 44 planes enter our plane set when so many other late war models having higher production and service values were not allowed over the last 8 years. Seems there were many more American Brewsters produced and serving near that time period and it is more known to be an American plane. Is it because it's a better model and might be able to compete a little easier or ...? (Image removed from quote.)

For this question I'll quote Widewing thought's on it. I think he summed it up pretty well.

It was time.... This game has a dedicated population of Finns, many of whom have contributed greatly to what you get enjoy these days. Maps, skins, running Euro prime time events to name just a few things these gentlemen have done. These guys get together every year and their own Finn Aces High convention.

The Brewster was a very important fighter for Finland, and it is much loved in Finland, and not only by aviation and history enthusiasts. I've been involved with this game in one manner or another since January of 2001. Even before then, the Finns have been asking for the Brewster. Finally, they have it in the pipeline.

I for one, am thrilled to see this great bunch of guys get what they had hoped for these many years. When the update is released, I'm going to make a point to schedule flying during prime Euro time, so I can fly the Brewster and wing up with the Finns. The Buffalo will be great fun, and I will not hesitate to fly it in the late war MAs.

Wheather people view Finns as "a great bunch of guys" or not here probably varies from person to person. So as a Finn myself I'm not commenting on that. What is true that Euro special events were at times *almost* solely ran by Finnish CMs and Kanttori has done a tremendous work by doing many terrains for AH. The latest and greatest was the Karelia-map which Kanttori and Blauk did together. I really don't know how much these things affected to the inclusion of the Brewster. Only HTC knows that.

Here's Pyro's view on the inclusion of Brewster during the plane vote two years ago:

Brewster Buffalo – My sentimental choice to win.  For nearly 12 years, Finns have asked me for this.  Their passion for this plane is contagious.  I’ve wanted to give them one ever since I read Double Fighter Knight about 10 years ago.  That really gave me an appreciation of the FAF and the sturdiness of Finns in general.  Of course, now that I’ve said it’s my sentimental favorite, if it happens to win it will provoke more conspiracy theories than Patrick Ewing going to the Knicks in the first NBA draft lottery.

So, only guys at HTC know why the time was now. Would be great to hear their current view on its inclusion...but I think Pyro's quote above seems to sum it up.