Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Dune:
Voss, I too am a P-51 fan.

But I have never heard anyone refer to the -38 the way you do.  Not in any of the pilot's stories about it, nor any other reports.

I've gone through the history of my grandfather's FG, the 364th, and not a single pilot talks about the "widow-maker" capabilities the way you do.  I've read reports from pilots who flew that plane in every theater in the war.  None of them feel the same way you do.

I'm not sure where you got this idea, but everything I've seen says it's not true.

Nor have I. Most pilots that were given time to learn the 38's systems had no harsh words for it. Lack of torque, tricycle gear, two engines, good stability, great low speed handling, docile stall characteristics, are usually not characteristics of a widowmaker.

Rest assured, screw up in any high performence plane and that will be the end of you.

I've read Earl Miller's accounts from his days in the 345th FS, who for the most part flew P-39's and later P-47's but also spent a good bit of time in the 38 and described it as nothing more then docile.
 http://web.a-znet.com/rmwinks/vets/earlspage.html

------------------
   
33rd FW www.33rd.org

[bolillo_loco]

The P-38 and its problems in the ETO can be directly traced to two things, pre 38Js and the 20FG. in the month preceeding the transition to 51s the 20th shot down about the same amount of german planes for 38s lost. so since the 38 is suppose to be so laim and the 51 so much better, the month after they went to the 51 they again had the same kill ratio as they did when they flew 38s.

I think it reflects the the men not the machine. and all this B/S about the germans split s-ing and diving away, werent the fighters at that time tied to the bombers? they werent suppose to be going off chasing germans that were on the run, but to stay and protect the bombers. thats something else that saw a change when 51s took over escorting. they changed escort tactics.

as was said over and over again. the 38 and all its problems can be traced to the ETO and the 20FG. I dont care what the 56th would have flown, they would have done good no matter what because they had the proper motivation, leadership, and training. almost like a marine unit.

There were guys in the MTO that flew against the germans Bf-109F and Gs with curtis P-40s yet they still chalked up a good record.

and if the P-47 was such a good diving plane with no negative problems, then how come it needed the exact same dive recovery flaps like the P-38 used?

[Widewing]

Voss wrote:
"Yes, and I don't care how much time you have on the crapper, the P-38 is still a widow maker. It also doesn't matter what you know about this-or-that! You make a mistake with a P-38 and it'll bite your ass! It's worse then the P-51 in that regard (and lots of other designs)."

Young man, don't you care that you have managed to demonstrate to everyone here that you are a self-important know-nothing? Shame on you for not knowing when it's time admit your error.

Voss wrote:
"Honestly, your love for your plane is commendable, but sadly misdirected. The P-38 has a triple-taper wing."

Ah yes, the famous and deadly 'triple-taper wing'. Would you be so generous as to explain the aerodynamic principle that causes this to be so?

Voss wrote:
"That spells "disaster waiting to happen" to any unwary pilot and lots of wary ones too! How many war pilots died after their first mistake? Thank your lucky stars you only fly these rigs from the safety of your computer desk!"

Hmmm.... Gee, and I thought my 332 traps (a trap is a full-stop landing on an aircraft carrier, a real carrier) and 2,400 hours (in real military aircraft) would have provided me with some useful insight into the handling of the P-38. Silly me! Who could have known that Voss was such an expert?:-(

Voss wrote:
"If Jesus had been into aircraft design, his name would have been Bill Atwood.   "

That's Lee Atwood, numbnuts.

The author of the piece that your last remark denigrates scored 6 kills with 6 probables. Single-handedly, he waded into a huge gaggle of IJN fighters over Ormoc Bay, shooting down 3 A6M5 Zeros, with three more believed to have not made it back to base (postwar investigation of Japanese records indicate that 5 Japanese pilots were lost in that area on that day). He was flying that "disaster waiting to happen", a P-38L-1-LO.

My regards,

Widewing

[Hooligan]

Widewing:

What is your name and email address please?  Are you C.C. Jordan?  I would like to correspond with you concerning obtaining some of the flight test data you have.

thanks,

Hooligan (jayb@exmsft.com)

[BUG_EAF322]

Voss u messing up with a nightfighter from northrop P?? twintailed fighter.

It had a nickname widowmaker and NOT THE P38!!

and all those american fighters where big

i don't think the p38 was that much bigger as a mustang or p47 .Compare them to a me109

[BUG_EAF322]

Voss is ignorant

[Voss]

Don't "Young man" me. Your experience has nothing to do with P-38's. Further, you attitude and tone come off as pompous and hypocritical. Engaging in a personal attack, against me, for disputing your 'opinion' is contrary to the ethics taught any Naval Officer (pilot or not). Therefore, your words are unimportant (Roman meaning there).

Furthermore, to think that the US Navy is turning out pilots that are not aware of the flight principles that make the P-38 dangerous is, quite frankly, scarey. For someone, with 2400 hours, you didn't learn very much. Do you actually fly AH? or just troll the boards?

I don't think much of your opinion, either. You don't even know who Bill Atwood is!  

Voss 13th T.A.S.

[214thCavalier]

Widewing 5 Voss 0    

I cant help but feel you kinda put yer foot so far in Voss that it was in danger of appearing outa yer ass.
Take 10 deep breaths spend a year researching any point you wanna make and then think better of it cos i think this man will shoot you down everytime.

You only gotta look at the amount of posts from Widewing  total 6, how can you accuse him of only trolling on the board ?

If anybodys posts appear as trolling i am afraid in this thread so far its your own.

I think the way you responded to his post in a confrontational manner invited the reply you recieved.

It would have been more helpful if you had posted what your experience was and any qualifications you have that enable you to be so authoritative about your opinion.

We will never get to the truth of any aircrafts performance abilities if everytime somebody who posts here who obviously has a wealth of knowledge on the subject is met with replies such as yours.

Follow F4UDOA's example he may not agree with some data posted but usually his replies are civil and well thought out, but I do think he was wrong when he did this "Some of what I wrote was tongue in cheek for the benefit of others who make outrageous claims of performance with nothing to back it up" I can see his point but lowering yourself to that same level is not correct.
I would hope he had a twinge of regret over that.

Hmm i guess the start of my post is confrontational but hell you deserve it.

[This message has been edited by 214thCavalier (edited 01-20-2001).]

[Voss]

Thanks, BUG.

Do you fly at all?

Voss 13th T.A.S.

[Widewing]

Voss sputtered:
"Don't "Young man" me."

What's wrong with that description? You certainly aren't one of the wise old sages of aviation.

Voss whined:
"Your experience has nothing to do with P-38's. Further, you attitude and tone come off as pompous and hypocritical."

My experience has a great deal to do with the P-38. I spent most of my career in piston engine, prop driven twins in the 17,000 to 25,000 lb class having power to weight ratios equal to the P-38. Where does your expertise come from? I know, ya saw it on Tee Vee, right?

Voss exaggerated with:
"Engaging in a personal attack, against me, for disputing your 'opinion' is contrary to the ethics taught any Naval Officer (pilot or not). Therefore, your words are unimportant (Roman meaning there)."

My goodness, you call that a 'personal attack'? That was a well deserved scolding. What's the problem Junior, can't you take it?Let's face facts; you aren't disputing my 'opinion', you are pissing in the wind against established facts. Grab your dictionary and check the definition of the word 'fact'. A 'fact' is something known to be true. You have not presented anything that could even be twisted to resemble a 'fact'. If you spout nonsense, expect to be castigated. Have the good judgement to understand that an uniformed opinion is an outward sign of an unwillingness, or worse, an inability to learn.

Voss dances around a question:
"Furthermore, to think that the US Navy is turning out pilots that are not aware of the flight principles that make the P-38 dangerous is, quite frankly, scarey. For someone, with 2400 hours, you didn't learn very much."

Tell you what Eintein, why don't you educate this ignorant old man? Please define for me precisely what 'flight priciples' make the P-38 so 'dangerous'. I'm sure everyone here will benefit from your many years of aeronautical engineering.

Voss takes his last lame shot:
"Do you actually fly AH? or just troll the boards?"

I have never played Aces High. I say played, because it is a game. Just in case you had forgotten that fact, you don't die if you crash. You don't freeze your bellybutton off in -50 degree temperatures at 30,000 feet. You don't worry about what will happen to your family if you don't come home.

I have played EAW, CFS, WarBirds and Air Warrior. Of these, EAW is the best by an order of magnitude. Still, it's just a fun way to learn tactics, and get a tiny taste of the real thing. Nonetheless, I do enjoy the sims. It's fun, nothing more, nothing less.

Voss succumbs to teenage testosterone:
"I don't think much of your opinion, either. You don't even know who Bill Atwood is!"

Obviously, you are one of those people, having made up your mind, will not be deterred by the facts.

So tell me, who is Bill Atwood, and why I should care one hoot?

Do you know who Lee Atwood is? Hint: NA-73X project manager.

My regards,

[Widewing]

Howdy F4UDOA

I don't have Mr. Meyer's address any longer. I probably threw it out in one of my office clean-ups. However, he and Warren are pals. Corky has little use for computers and does not have an e-mail address (at least he didn't a few months ago).

I will ask Warren for his mailing address and you can ask him your questions personally. BTW, Flight Journal will forward mail addressed to Corky C/O the magazine. As to whether he will write back is another issue. Corky has been caring for his long time female companion, who is battling cancer. I'm surprised he has the time to write his magazine articles. Did you catch his latest in FJ? It's an interesting piece on the F4F.

With regards to the XP-47J: It wasn't Republic that claimed a speed of 507 mph. This came from the AAF which issued a report titled Official Performance Summary of the XP-47J Aircraft. This report is signed off by Col. George Smith. Republic's Test Report No. 51 lists an maximum speed of 502 mph. The AAF report states that the projected maximum speed is based upon testing at Wright Field's ATSC. The folks at Wright only managed to get the J up to 484 mph. However, they realized that they had a leak in the exhaust manifold, limiting maximum boost. Based upon this, they believed that 507 mph was attainable. Mike Richie, Republic's test pilot for the program, reported seeing 504 mph over the Republic test course. Little was said about this until the AAF issued a press release. As far as Republic was concerned (according to C. Hart Miller)the company made no speed claim until after the AAF released the story to the press. Blame the AAF representatives at Republic for that.  

You will also note that every offical Air Force publication lists 507 mph for the XP-47J, as does virtually every other publication. It must be noted that the considerably heavier P-47M was capable speeds in the 470-480 mph range. When we consider that every P-47M had its wastegate modified in the field to allow higher boost pressures, it should not surprise anyone that some pilots claimed to have pushed 500 mph in the M.

Barrett Tillman: I have his e-mail address. Write out your questions and I will forward them to Barrett along with your e-mail address. Send your questions for Barrett to editor@worldwar2aviation.com

Now, the P-38 book: Warren has elected to do a simple soft cover reprint of his orginal hard cover P-38 book. He may include some new material, but I doubt it. It boils down to timing. Motorbooks is his distributor (Warren owns the publishing company, Widewing Publications - ah, there's my user name) and they have asked for an expidited delivery. This means that the existing layout will be used, or the delivery date cannot be met. If you haven't seen Warren's P-38 book, it is the most detailed and accurate ever published. However, because it was based on a series of magazine articles written in the 1970s, it is somewhat disjointed and lacks an index. I prepared a thorough index, but the time constraints excluded it on this printing. The Tony LeVier Bio is about 50% completed. It must wait until I have cleared up some other commitments, including a children's book that
Col. Gail Halvorsen has been advising me on. You may recognize Halvorsen's name. He was the famous "Candy Bomber" of the Berlin Airlift. If there is a better man on earth than Halvorsen, I've never met him. Another fellow who has been of great help is Joe Werner, a wonderful guy who has offered his time without even being asked.

Jeff Ethells notes: I don't have anything that belongs to Jeff. Everything is the hands of his son and daughter. Trust me when I say that anything you get from these pirates will cost you hard currency. I can, however, suggest a very useful Ethell book. I believe that Diz Dean has this in his collection: Illustrated Classic Warbird Buyer's Guide. This book contains all of the test data from the CAF F6F, FG-1A, P-47D and P-51D flight test that Dean references in AHT (page 605). My copy is out on loan to a colleague, but I should have it back in a week or two. My local library has a copy, so check with your library, or if they're on the web, you can search their card catalog from your computer. I would imagine that any decent university library would have a copy, or could find one. The book is out of print, but is a must have for anyone interested in fighter performance.

My best,

Widewing

[Dnil]

so whats the deal with Wings of Fame and World Airpower Journal?  They both outa business?

------------------
Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer

[Widewing]

I would not blame the 20th FG. This group, along with the 55th, were thrown to the dogs without so much as a "good luck". Both P-38 groups that deployed in the fall of 1943 were victimized by being the only long-range escort in the ETO. They had to fight off hoards of Luftwaffe fighters with little more than 50 aircraft (total, both groups combined). The 20th had some Sierra Hotel pilots, including Jack Ilfrey (the first AAF ace against Germany), Mark Hubbard, Ernest Fiebelkorn, Harold Rau and Art Heiden. Ilfrey and Heiden are friends of mine and I can say that without question that there was nothing wrong with the pilots and leadership of the 20th Fighter Group.

Their situation was one of being the first to arrive, poor usage by 8th AF brass and an airplane that suffered countless engine failures. Most of the Group's losses were not due to Luftwaffe fighters, but the result of Allison engines coming apart 400 miles from home. The P-38H and early J models that 20th and 55th flew had but one generator. If the related engine failed, all you had was the battery. However, the battery had just been cold-soaked for two or more hours at -56 Degrees F. It was as dead as that well known doornail. Without battery power, you can't operate the fuel boost pumps. Without boost pumps, you have to decend to below 10,000 ft, or the mechanical pump cannot provide adequate fuel pressure.
Another problem that comes with no electrical power is that you cannot control the propellers any longer. Moreover, without power, they might simply feather. You can imagine what happens next. Even though all these problems were resolved in the P-38L, the 20th and 55th did not get any L models until July of '44. As it was, Doolittle decided to standardize the escort fighters and both the 20th and 55th transitioned to the P-51D in August of '44.

You realize that I'm not listing several other serious problems facing the P-38 in 1943, high over Germany. We can get into these in another post. Just understand that while the P-38 had some tremendous capabilities, it also suffered from some serious problems.

Don't blame the Fighter Groups. I assure you that the 56th would have had just as difficult a time as the 20th when faced with the same overwhelming challenges. Circumstances made all the difference. For balance, read what Zemke had to say about the P-38. He was transferred from the 56th to command a P-38 Group. Zemke was a straight shooter, if nothing else.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

I would not blame the 20th FG. This group, along with the 55th, were thrown to the dogs without so much as a "good luck". Both P-38 groups that deployed in the fall of 1943 were victimized by being the only long-range escort in the ETO. They had to fight off hoards of Luftwaffe fighters with little more than 50 aircraft (total, both groups combined). The 20th had some Sierra Hotel pilots, including Jack Ilfrey (the first AAF ace against Germany), Mark Hubbard, Ernest Fiebelkorn, Harold Rau and Art Heiden. Ilfrey and Heiden are friends of mine and I can say that without question that there was nothing wrong with the pilots and leadership of the 20th Fighter Group.

Their situation was one of being the first to arrive, poor usage by 8th AF brass and an airplane that suffered countless engine failures. Most of the Group's losses were not due to Luftwaffe fighters, but the result of Allison engines coming apart 400 miles from home. The P-38H and early J models that 20th and 55th flew had but one generator. If the related engine failed, all you had was the battery. However, the battery had just been cold-soaked for two or more hours at -56 Degrees F. It was as dead as that well known doornail. Without battery power, you can't operate the fuel boost pumps. Without boost pumps, you have to decend to below 10,000 ft, or the mechanical pump cannot provide adequate fuel pressure.
Another problem that comes with no electrical power is that you cannot control the propellers any longer. Moreover, without power, they might simply feather. You can imagine what happens next. Even though all these problems were resolved in the P-38L, the 20th and 55th did not get any L models until July of '44. As it was, Doolittle decided to standardize the escort fighters and both the 20th and 55th transitioned to the P-51D in August of '44.

You realize that I'm not listing several other serious problems facing the P-38 in 1943, high over Germany. We can get into these in another post. Just understand that while the P-38 had some tremendous capabilities, it also suffered from some serious problems.

Don't blame the Fighter Groups. I assure you that the 56th would have had just as difficult a time as the 20th when faced with the same overwhelming challenges. Circumstances made all the difference. For balance, read what Zemke had to say about the P-38. He was transferred from the 56th to command a P-38 Group. Zemke was a straight shooter, if nothing else.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Hooligan asks:

"What is your name and email address please?  Are you C.C. Jordan?"

Say, how am I to remain incognito if you start shoutin' my name all over the place?:-)

You can contact me at the following:
Jordan@worldwar2aviation.com
or
editor@worldwar2aviation.com

Everything sent to either address gets forwarded to me at home or the office.  

My regards

Widewing