Engines runing full blast

[Anaxogoras]

Ok, fair enough.  But if I had to choose between 5 minutes and automatic shutoff, or 15 minutes and engine failure, I'm going with the 15 minute option every time.  Let me run the engine hot and decide for myself when it's time to throttle back.

I'm also sympathetic to widewing's idea that WEP recharge time should be affected by throttle in AH.

[BnZs]

Ok, fair enough.  But if I had to choose between 5 minutes and automatic shutoff, or 15 minutes and engine failure, I'm going with the 15 minute option every time.  Let me run the engine hot and decide for myself when it's time to throttle back.

I'm also sympathetic to widewing's idea that WEP recharge time should be affected by throttle in AH.

To me an engine failure way too early is less...lets call it aesthetically pleasing...than the little cartoon pilot saying "Okay Junior, I got the ship, we're pulling her back down to book settings". Plus, 15 minutes of WEP is basically infinite WEP for MA purposes.

I agree about recharge time though.

[Stiglr]

Adink writes:

The reason for this is simply a communication issue between all players. When calling an altitude to another person or your speed or what ever, I have no desire for anyone to have to convert units in your head.

2nd not many pilots of the world have to switch between metric and English on a 5 minute basis as would be the need if we did each plane in its native unit. This drives game play that players would tend to only fly English or metric planes and not mix switch easily between the 2.

I'll call BS on that, Dale.

For one thing, you're discrediting the ability of people to be able to think. Expressing 10,000 feet as about 3km is describing the same distance. Why this "need" to have to use same units? I'm extremely math challenged IRL, and yet I can keep them straight in my head, after flying virtually for several years.

Also, because of your 'murrican mindset, don't you think your Euro flyers might be much more used to km/h, or km alt than feet and inches (In fact most of the world is at odds with feet & inches)? Oh, and by the way, I did quote (or rather paraphrase) you correctly on the communication between us way back when when I requested accurate gauges in the various types. You actually did basically say that "this is an American audience game" and basically say no other viewpoint was relevant.

As for your comments about Targetware, don't forget that popularity doesn't mean superiority. I'll wager a lot of AH's popularity has do to with the fact that it is, by you and your players' own admission a GAME first and a sim a distant second. The above discussion on units attests to that. You'd rather leave out the detail of accurate gauges in favor of some perceived gameplay benefit.

And, the problems over at TW have much more to do with the core coding cabal than anything I may have done or said. I will say I wish they were as dedicated as you and your team in terms of producing product and supporting it.  to you for that, at least.

And, as a final note, don't bother with the ban threats, please. For one, I don't really care. For two, I would ask you to apply the same yardstick to your fans, and the way some of them reply in this same post (and actually, I don't think any of them have crossed any lines, either, unlike on some other boards). I haven't done anything even remotely out of bounds as far as your rules go. So for you to pull out the ban-stick on this would simply be because you want to stifle debate.

[Karnak]

Stiglr,

No comments about your request as being revealed to be the unrealistic, gamey crap you rail against?

[trigger2]

Adink writes:
I'll call BS on that, Dale.
For one thing, you're discrediting the ability of people to be able to think. Expressing 10,000 feet as about 3km is describing the same distance. Why this "need" to have to use same units? I'm extremely math challenged IRL, and yet I can keep them straight in my head, after flying virtually for several years.
Also, because of your 'murrican mindset, don't you think your Euro flyers might be much more used to km/h, or km alt than feet and inches (In fact most of the world is at odds with feet & inches)? Oh, and by the way, I did quote (or rather paraphrase) you correctly on the communication between us way back when when I requested accurate gauges in the various types. You actually did basically say that "this is an American audience game" and basically say no other viewpoint was relevant.

Well hmm, valid point, oh, wait, never mind, you phail.
This is HIS game, not yours, can it.
His dicision on gauges makes perfect sense, IRL, 2 people would be communicating using the same units, 1 f-15 wouldn't be using km while the other mi (that's cause they'd both be using knots. ). Unification is what he's going for, and well yes, it IS a more of an American based game, why? Cause it's made here in the US of A. Shocking, I know, someone would go with the units for the area it's made...

So again, you fail, go away. if you don't like it.

[Plazus]

Suck my vertical climb rate. 

HiTech

Kiss my vertical dive rate! 

[sparow]

Hi all,

I hesitaded very much before posting a reply on this thread. I am afraid of contributing only to bring attention on a very insignificant matter.

What we have here is a discussion about if Aces High should be a flight simulator or a game. If you try to assume it is a simulator then this wish - that, apparently, is beeing presented as a major flaw and, therefore, a mandatory fix - is valid. If it is a game, makes no sense at all.

I believe that all of AH older users have already understood that Aces High is the next best thing to a WW2 flight combat simulator. Aces High is right were it has to be right, is fair were discretion must be applied and humble enough to keep improving it. But these older users have no illusions about AH not beeing a hard-core flight simulator. And although they would allways welcome more immersive functionalities - in planes, weather, etc. - they will never try to impose it to the whole community.

Simmers want 100% historical and technical accuracy, they enjoy immersion above all else. Gamers play for points and ranking. Simmers wish the impossible. What they want to feel is impossible to be felt behind a computer. Thank God, the majority of Aces High users are true enthusiasts and very realistic persons that enjoy the best they can a close interpretation of WW2 combat.

I must admit that, if more realistic functionalities were introduced, I would enjoy some of them and hate some others... I have, myself, contributed in these forums with some very non-original "ideas"... just do a search, you will all see what I mean...

Let me tell you one story. I believe that in the past there was the option of having metric readings in cockpit instruments - have I dreamed? My memory plays tricks on me lately. I never used it and I am an european. You know why? It's simple: I "learned" to fly in british/american sims/games where the aircraft had instruments in knots/mph/feet... I understand 5.000 feet, I fail to understand 1.500 meters quickly, I must mentally convert it, it is tiring and distracting. But if I had to, well, Iwould have to get used to them. But not by option.

Also, I remember - was it in WB or in AH? - to have seized a Spitfire engine by flying inverted for too long. Yes, this is true. I was fooling around with my squad mates doing that Top Gun joke and I did it for too long. It seized.

In real life, things like not having a Vokes air filter in Malta or North Africa would mean that your engine would die sooner and could fail on you more often than not... and many did when they needed it most. Even stupid things like dust could kill you. Engines would start to run rough, losing power, overheating, seizing in flight... Sometimes they even failed to accelerate on the take-off run, the booster valve stucked closed by sand and oil...

In real life, pilots dove in a con and the temperature differences between cold and warm air layers frosted canopies and front windshields in such way they couldn’t see, let alone aim or fire… Guns froze al altitude, ice build on wings and control surfaces, props ran away, you name it!
This was real life, this cannot be reproduced in a computer sim. You would have to randomize these things, build athmosferic systems for others to work, sorry, it makes no sense. Why have such trouble developing ultra advanced systems when not even NIGHT is well accepted? And when in NIGHT mode, you know that some people end up tuning his graphic settings to turn NIGHT into DAY?
What is the point of bringing in so much “realism” that you start not enjoying the thing? If this is to be like work, I want to be paid for it…

There are other issues in Aces High that must have higher priority and are of much higher importance to many more users than this. Close or open a radiator cowling? Please… Turning landing lights on or off? Give me a break! I am sure that the vast majority of Aces High users would laugh if this was implemented before, let’s say… the He-111…

Dear fellow pilot: I do not wish to be rude, but you must think better about the importance of such minutea. Enjoy Aces High for what it has of good. Express your ideas, formulate your desires, participate in this community life. But accept that some of your ideas are not so good, feasible or even fair to implement.

Enjoy Aces High, I will be delighted to fly with you or against you. Planes are free.
<Salute>

[Masherbrum]

You really don't know what the hell you're talking about... We fly a combat sim, not a Cessna tooling around the midwest. From the time the wheels are in the wells, you had better be ready to fight. There is no engine management in combat, you firewall it and cylinder head, coolant and oil temps be damned. Engines can be replaced, your bellybutton is the only one available. Use up an engine? That's why God made mechanics. You can build an engine in several hours, a fighter in a few days. Pilots take years to train.

Flying with your head in the cockpit is the fastest way to get dead. Everything forward, and you don't even think about engine management, unless you want to die.

Prop to full RPM, mixture to rich, throttle up, gun switch on, gunsight on... Everything listed should already have been done prior to initial contact... Thus, work load in combat is minimal.

If you want engine management, you have it. Get the respective aircraft manual and fly it by the book. Be my guest. But, I'll bet you throw away the book when you find my fighter on your six... "The heck with engine management, I gotta get the hell out of here!"

It wouldn't matter tho, I'll bet I could send you a telegram the day before and you still wouldn't be prepared for me.... 


My regards,

Widewing

The analogy I've always used with Pilots are that "They are likened to Race Car Drivers".   You do one thing, you drive, your crew takes care of the car to prep for race day.   The driver, just drives.  

I'd say the same with pilots as well.   Pilots leave their ground crews to the maintenance and overhauling, to allow the pilot the best chance of returning for another sortie.  

Stigler just seems hellbent on avoiding a very simple detail and putting whitewash all over it.

[Saxman]

Shocking, I know, someone would go with the units for the area it's made...

Case in point:

While Il-2 gives aircraft their accurate gauges (German aircraft in Metric and American in English units) all COMMUNICATIONS in the game are given in Metric, rather than in the appropriate measurement for the aircraft you're flying. Why? Because the game's designers are based in RUSSIA. Double-standard, Stiggie, to blast HTC for using one unit of measure while ignoring the fact that other developers do the same.

Also, think about communications in the game. ASSUMING you ever play. This is an example of what you might see on TXT:

Saxman: Visual four bogies, my left 10 low, alt 5k.
Widewing: Roger tally, alt 5k. Con two P-51s and two P-47s 3.5k out.
Gavagai: CC 51s and 47s. Three more behind them higher, about 7-8k

So tell me Stiggie, what altitude and range are those contacts at? With that information would you be able to tell whether they're at 5000ft or 15,000?

This is PRECISELY why the game has universal units of measure. If both Widewing and I are in F4U-1As we'd be seeing it as 5000ft. But if Gavagai is in a 109, his altimeter would be reading ~1500m instead. Unless he KNEW we meant feet he'd be confused. In a situation where people on the same country may be flying aircraft from different sides of the conflict it only makes things more difficult if each aircraft displayed different units of measure. It's NOT so much transitioning from one aircraft to another. As has been said, the math isn't TOO hard (multiply meters by 3 and you more or less have the same in feet. Multiply airspeed in mph by ~1.5 to get km/h) that it would prevent someone from flying a sortie in a 109 then jumping into a P-38 and being totally confused when looking at the gauges. The problem is that if you're in a 109 and are winging with a P-38 uniform measurements are needed to facilitate communications between you.

sparow,

Good post. However part of the problem is that what Stiggie and others are asking for is no more realistic than what we have now. The notion that engines run at full power would overheat and then lose performance in the manner they're asking over the course of ONE sortie is ludicrous. As multiple experienced pilots in this thread have pointed out: IT DOES NOT HAPPEN (funny that Stiggie is so proud of his book smarts he ignores what people who actually fly for a living have to tell him). What WOULD happen is that the ground crew would need to tear down the engine, check for damage and run tests to determine if anything needed to be adjusted before the aircraft could be signed off to return to flight, taking the aircraft out of action for however many hours or days it took to complete the check-out. When you consider that in some theaters or engagements pilots were flying 2, 3, even FOUR sorties a day (during some attacks on the Tokyo Express and Japanese shipping during Guadalcanal, Cactus Air Force pilots often took off, dropped their bombs, returned to the base and never even climbed out of their cockpits as they were gassed and armed to go out and do it again another four or five times before they finally shut down) having an aircraft down for maintenance was a big deal. But maintenance does NOT come into play in Aces High.

What you're talking about regarding the air filters is a different matter. This is the result of something actually PHYSICALLY clogging up the engine. Foreign objects are bad for precision moving parts.

[Masherbrum]

Adink writes:

I'll call BS on that, Dale.

For one thing, you're discrediting the ability of people to be able to think. Expressing 10,000 feet as about 3km is describing the same distance. Why this "need" to have to use same units? I'm extremely math challenged IRL, and yet I can keep them straight in my head, after flying virtually for several years.

Also, because of your 'murrican mindset, don't you think your Euro flyers might be much more used to km/h, or km alt than feet and inches (In fact most of the world is at odds with feet & inches)? Oh, and by the way, I did quote (or rather paraphrase) you correctly on the communication between us way back when when I requested accurate gauges in the various types. You actually did basically say that "this is an American audience game" and basically say no other viewpoint was relevant.

As for your comments about Targetware, don't forget that popularity doesn't mean superiority. I'll wager a lot of AH's popularity has do to with the fact that it is, by you and your players' own admission a GAME first and a sim a distant second. The above discussion on units attests to that. You'd rather leave out the detail of accurate gauges in favor of some perceived gameplay benefit.

And, the problems over at TW have much more to do with the core coding cabal than anything I may have done or said. I will say I wish they were as dedicated as you and your team in terms of producing product and supporting it.  to you for that, at least.

And, as a final note, don't bother with the ban threats, please. For one, I don't really care. For two, I would ask you to apply the same yardstick to your fans, and the way some of them reply in this same post (and actually, I don't think any of them have crossed any lines, either, unlike on some other boards). I haven't done anything even remotely out of bounds as far as your rules go. So for you to pull out the ban-stick on this would simply be because you want to stifle debate.

GScholz?   Because you come out of nowhere and now rip into Dale over this "aspect" of the game?   You seem to have had an agenda from your first post and took 9 pages to see it through. 

I'm an American and enjoy being one.  I treat others, the same as they treat me.   My nationality has ZERO bearing on my gameplay, etc.   For you to even mention nationalities at all is selfish at best.

[sparow]

What you're talking about regarding the air filters is a different matter. This is the result of something actually PHYSICALLY clogging up the engine. Foreign objects are bad for precision moving parts.

Thank you for your comment, Saxman. Should we ask HTC to model dust?  LOL!

I believe that at this point, this is demonstrating that the reasons behind Stiglr insistence are deeper than the simple porsuit of a personal wish...

<Salute>

[Stiglr]

Stiglr,

No comments about your request as being revealed to be the unrealistic, gamey crap you rail against?

Don't understand the charge... I stand by the evidence I've posted. Done properly (and IL-2 isn't "properly"), engine management does add more detail, more realism, AND more fun to a sim.

As for the relative "gaminess" of it, even a poor attempt at EM is less gamey than simply plugging one's ears, intoning "la-la-la-la-la....I can't hear you... la-la-la" and pretending it doesn't exist or wasn't a factor in flying these aircraft.

[jdbecks]

Honestly, why would it be so good to have different airplanes reading in different units of measure..other than to cause confusion.  Because if you done that, you would also have to change your units of weight in the EB6, gun convergence distances, aircraft distances etc... At which point the game would start to fade away from being fun. As they say.."Becareful of what you wish for"

my views on  not having engine over heating has already been expressed a number of times.

[Stiglr]

Suck my vertical climb rate. 

HiTech

Do keep this post in mind when/if you start looking for a basis to swing the "ban stick" my way.
That's fairly "vulgar and obscene", what you wrote there....

[moot]

What we have here is a discussion about if Aces High should be a flight simulator or a game. If you try to assume it is a simulator then this wish - that, apparently, is beeing presented as a major flaw and, therefore, a mandatory fix - is valid. If it is a game, makes no sense at all.

There's no need to assume anything.. HT and others (mostly HT) comment on it on the forums and during conventions, so that there's plenty of evidence for exactly what they mean AH to be.
The game/simulator thing is semantics and it's straighter to the point to consider the explicit design intent straight from the game designers.

Simmers want 100% historical and technical accuracy, they enjoy immersion above all else. Gamers play for points and ranking. Simmers wish the impossible.

Inaccurate... This is the kind of nonsense (litterally, with all due respect) that you get when you do the semantics thing.