Author Topic: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...  (Read 8516 times)

Offline Crash Orange

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2009, 12:54:43 PM »
What am I mistaken about in duels and jousts?

A duel was most often set up to solve a dispute of "honor". In my mind I was thinking of pistols so take 10 paces "turn and fire! one with the luckiest aim wins" (luckiest because the black powder guns most often used were notoriously in accurate.)

And Jousts where two "knights" on horseback running full speed head on, trying to unhorse his opponent.

Neither is a matter of luck. Jousting took a tremendous amount of skill; a skilled jouster would beat an unskilled one every time. Nothing random about it at all.

Black powder is not that inaccurate at short ranges. At ten paces any half-decent and half-clean gun will have a group well smaller than a human torso. What made people miss was either (a) they meant to or (b) nerves (or possibly improper loading, but IIRC the seconds usually did the loading). Andrew Jackson killed a man in a duel (AFAIK the only President ever to have done so) after the other guy had already shot him in the chest and broken two of his ribs. That ain't luck. Incidentally, duels were as likely to be "shoot one after another, challenged first" as "both shoot as fast as you can when the signal is given."

What makes HOing more random than dueling or jousting is (a) starting from a range where few people if any can hit reliably and (b) automatic weapons with which you can spray until you hit something. It's more like a duel running at each other with Glocks starting at 200 yards.

But you missed the whole point of my post. HOing is only like jousting if what you're doing is like jousting to begin with - two guys lining up looking straight at each other from out of effective range and then galloping/flying toward each other at the same time. In that situation, what everyone says about HOing is correct, it's stupid and obnoxious and indicates a lack of skill or class.

But there's nothing joust-like or duel-like about it if you barely manage to get guns on and kill a guy who was vulching you on your takeoff but stupid enough to come in low in your front quarter, or a guy who jumps you from 10k up when you're limping home with your engine oil nearly gone, or one of five enemies ganging you or capping your field, or a jabo 5 seconds from dropping on your CV. And I find myself in situations like those, or others that are not remotely duel-like, a lot more often than 1v1 co-alt merges.

Now, as to having honor, perhaps if you don't like people making unflattering assumptions about you without knowing what they're talking about, you should avoid making unflattering assumptions about others without having any idea what you're talking about. You might even find people are more receptive to your ideas if you don't claim that anyone who disagrees with you is skilless, clueless, and classless.

(You should also quit with the "Kids today!" crap. It just makes you sound like a cranky old curmudgeon, and you have no idea how old the people you're talking about are anyway and are wrong in many of your assumptions on that point.)

Offline Steve

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2009, 03:06:47 PM »

....takes 2 ta HO eh!

Uhhh no.   Two to merge, one to HO
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Offline WMLute

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2009, 03:20:01 PM »
And yet still.........  You haven't mentioned Rule 5.......... That's why you still have agast......... :x

At the same time, you are trying to cloud the actual words said in the dicta.   :salute

Turn and run, or ho?  Answer that!!! 



And thanks for the compliment Lute!!!   :lol

Not at all.

The thinking behind # 6 was to turn towards your nme because, even climbing and having less energy, you had vastly more options than giving them your tail.  I use #6 in most every fight.
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Offline LLogann

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2009, 03:21:43 PM »
You didn't answer though my respected enemy....... If there are only 2 choices......... Which would it be?


Not at all.

The thinking behind # 6 was to turn towards your nme because, even climbing and having less energy, you had vastly more options than giving them your tail.  I use #6 in most every fight.
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Offline Wreked

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2009, 03:32:42 PM »
Uhhh no.   Two to merge, one to HO

Well I guess in your book perhaps there is only 1  type of merge - in mine many : ANY meeting of craft is a merge no matter what the orientation.  High 6 merge / Front 1/4 merge / etc etc.

Two that fly face to face at each other when merging is a "HO merge" in my books. Doesn't matter if either of them fire. ***NOTE it's called a "HEAD ON" for that very reason.  A "HO merge" has nothing to do with whether they fire or not. If one moves off line it's not a ho in my opinion.


..and there we have it in a nut shell - everyone has a different definition for HO.  heheh
I'll just agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.

HO is a HO is a HO.....under any other name too eh! :D
HO is a HO is a HO!!
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Offline Westy

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #110 on: September 16, 2009, 03:36:25 PM »
Shooting people with thier backs to you is for sissies and cowards!
 

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #111 on: September 16, 2009, 04:21:14 PM »
<snip>

But you missed the whole point of my post. HOing is only like jousting if what you're doing is like jousting to begin with - two guys lining up looking straight at each other from out of effective range and then galloping/flying toward each other at the same time. In that situation, what everyone says about HOing is correct, it's stupid and obnoxious and indicates a lack of skill or class.

</snip>

So basically we agree. For the most part  most fights start this way "galloping/flying toward each other".  I would like to see more combat where each plane maneuvers for the merge. Yes there are snap shots, deflection shots, bounces, vulches, even "spraying and praying" but for those "moves" your still trying to get yourself into a shooting position, hence the combat, trying to out maneuver the other guy. Thats all I'm really asking for, try something other than a HO, and I don't mean "you" personally.

As for sounding like "a cranky old curmudgeon", I guess I am  :P  Maybe instead of "these kids today" I'll use "these newbs today". Will that make me sound less grouchy?

Offline Steve

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2009, 04:30:12 PM »
Well I guess in your book perhaps there is only 1  type of merge - in mine many : ANY meeting of craft is a merge no matter what the orientation.  High 6 merge / Front 1/4 merge / etc etc.

Two that fly face to face at each other when merging is a "HO merge" in my books. Doesn't matter if either of them fire. ***NOTE it's called a "HEAD ON" for that very reason.  A "HO merge" has nothing to do with whether they fire or not. If one moves off line it's not a ho in my opinion.


..and there we have it in a nut shell - everyone has a different definition for HO.  heheh
I'll just agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.

HO is a HO is a HO.....under any other name too eh! :D


There aren't two definitions of a HO shot.  Yours is simply wrong.
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Offline Wreked

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #113 on: September 16, 2009, 07:11:04 PM »

There aren't two definitions of a HO shot.  Yours is simply wrong.


LOL

riigghhhtttttt.....and next will you be telling us all that your way is the right and only way to play the game...have it your way - I'm not particularily concerned about your miopic opinion friend....and if you've bothered to follow the conversations here you'll see there are WAY more than 2 definations of HO.

.... but once again proves my point about narrow minded people who see only their point of view <shrug>

...and fer the rest of you reasonable folks...interesting views - keep em coming.
...cheers eh! :D
HO is a HO is a HO!!
You can lead a donkey to a FACT - you just can't make them think!

cheers eh!!

Offline Agent360

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #114 on: September 16, 2009, 09:28:19 PM »
I read some of this thread. Couldn't bear to read all of it.....same ole crap.

Eric Hartman did not think the Head On shot was a good thing to do. He did not value it as a tactic at all. It is not at "tactic". It is a desperate move when you have no other options.

Dicta Boelcke did not think head on attacks were valuable either...read his rules how you want but there is nothing there suggesting head on was a tactic.

Further firing at the merge or before DOES WORK. It is not only possible but quite easy to fire on the merge and still make a lead turn...still make a tactical move giving you the advantage.

The idea that firing on the merge makes you loose advantage is not true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If anyone doubts this I will be glad to show you in the DA how this works.

Even if you have huge smash with no intention of turning you can still Head on fire, blow through, climb above and do it again with impunity. The pilot who dodges the HO will be at a disadvantage.

If you take two relatively equal pilots and they both fire on the merge during their merge pass or thereafter on each merge pass they will both be hit and both will crash 9 out of 10 times. OR one will miss and one will hit damaging the others plane with oil, radiator, pilot wound or collision. The round is over at that point.

So we continue to do this over and over and over...in the end neither pilot has any fun...it now becomes a "dualist" or "jousting" contest...nothing more...there is no "maneuvering combat"...only head on guns blazing.

There are two schools of thought in AH2 about this.
#1 -  its a valid thing to do....typically "I had guns and you didn't..you died..I lived..end of story"

#2 - it's a sign of total newbness, lame and skilless game play. A sign of a player who cares nothing about combat maneuver and counter maneuver. A player who considers ANY kind of kill no matter how it is achieved a good kill.

Although a head on firing pass can be made without loosing positional advantage that does not mean that it should be done.

Can you imagine if every player in AH2 made it a point to head on fire on every pass....what a joke this game would be.

Just for the record, I think Ho shots are lame in the context of fighting 1v1 in any arena. There are times like cherry picking vulcher who I will ho at the first opportunity and others that have been listed.

But as a general rule, the HO is something that shows poor game play, no respect for your enemy, and generally results in your status being referred to in very nasty terms. Hoing gets you nothing but contempt by your piers and colleges. It gains you absolutely nothing.










Offline BnZs

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #115 on: September 16, 2009, 09:38:15 PM »


If you take two relatively equal pilots and they both fire on the merge during their merge pass or thereafter on each merge pass they will both be hit and both will crash 9 out of 10 times. OR one will miss and one will hit damaging the others plane with oil, radiator, pilot wound or collision. The round is over at that point.

So we continue to do this over and over and over...in the end neither pilot has any fun...it now becomes a "dualist" or "jousting" contest...nothing more...there is no "maneuvering combat"...only head on guns blazing.


I get the impression that in real air combat for whatever reason this was NOT the case and HOs were considered a shot you are unlikely to score on, as opposed to sims. Shaw's words are something to the effect of "firing on the merge can put you at a psychological advantage and you may even score some lucky hits". Maybe its the icons?
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Steve

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #116 on: September 16, 2009, 09:42:19 PM »

LOL

riigghhhtttttt.....and next will you be telling us all that your way is the right and only way to play the game...have it your way - I'm not particularily concerned about your miopic opinion friend....and if you've bothered to follow the conversations here you'll see there are WAY more than 2 definations of HO.

.... but once again proves my point about narrow minded people who see only their point of view <shrug>

...and fer the rest of you reasonable folks...interesting views - keep em coming.
...cheers eh! :D

I'm not giving you my opinion.  I'm telling you how it has been defined in the community for years. There is only one correct definition of a HO shot.  Your horrible spelling aside, feel free continue to  try to be condescending.  If it makes you feel superior, great, but you're still wrong.
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Offline FiLtH

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #117 on: September 16, 2009, 10:20:11 PM »
 Ive stopped worrying about stuff like this. The MA is a madhouse. Nobody will cut ya slack because you didnt HO em. And you know you are gonna get HO'd. Dueling is one thing, but in a place where they are lined up to gang,pick,HO,etc, stop worrying about it. In the words of Obiwan, "Let go!"

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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2009, 01:13:47 AM »
Anecdotal references of pilots I've seen over the years have also indicated that; besides the guns issue; there was a great fear about collisions to the point that they even discussed it amongst themselves and concluded the disadvantages of HO's far out wieghed any perceived advantage. They flew so as to not allowing themselves to be put in that situation.

Once again the feeling from them I got was that if you are in a HO situation it is of your doing.

....takes 2 ta HO eh!
dont be a ritard...does not take 2 to HO, Ill even give a situation. Im getting by 4 people like normal and I dont have much E left to manuever, a 5th guy comes in at me and pulls nose to nose...I can easily fire but I dont,he does..I go down and of course call him a noob on 200. Now in this situation where Im already slow and almost stall speed with flaps out its hard to do anytihng to avoid it would you agree?
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Offline BlauK

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Re: Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...
« Reply #119 on: September 17, 2009, 02:15:04 AM »
I'm not giving you my opinion.  I'm telling you how it has been defined in the community for years. There is only one correct definition of a HO shot.  Your horrible spelling aside, feel free continue to  try to be condescending.  If it makes you feel superior, great, but you're still wrong.

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Nice to meet you Mr Community :devil


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