Author Topic: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats  (Read 5902 times)

Offline Shifty

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2009, 06:22:05 PM »
Yes.  i was thinking tommy but put jerry down with out thinking about what i did.  How did your squ do in the FSO?

We've had better nights.  :D

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline ImADot

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2009, 06:38:13 PM »
Yeah, it was a tough night for us Allied guys.  Tougher for some who don't fly EW birds much and think they can spray the .303's from 400 like they were .50cal MW/LW rides.  Key is to get in 200 and then concentrate fire on one point, preferable not the fuselage.  It's tough enough to do that against faster planes - most in the game are faster than the British Mk1 birds.  Tougher yet against any bomber that shoots back.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2009, 06:48:12 PM »
We had a great time riding with JG2.  :salute.    Thanks for ride Chappy.

On the way home from a8 i saw Stampf put his ju88 on the ground, possibly a POW now.  Hope he finds his way home... :salute
Well done JG11,JG2, and Helcat fighter Group.. :rock


 The last report JG11 got from Herr Stampf was,he'd found a toothless farm girl and he'd make his way to the channel in do time...... :D

Offline Saxman

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2009, 07:28:28 PM »
One thing you have to remember is that the damage model in some ways gives an artificial bias in favor of cannon-armed planes.

In a real aircraft there's all sorts of little things that those .303s can tear up: skin, control surfaces, fuel and oil lines, cylinder heads, oil/fuel pumps, control lines, etc. etc. etc. Sure, that Hurricane might not crack the main spar, but your wing isn't going to generate much lift when its airfoil has been shredded (watching a plane tumble out of the air because its wing just can't provide sufficient lift anymore is one of the few enjoyable parts of Il-2).

However in the game parts are either there or they aren't. There's no "half way." This means that cannon, which can take parts off completely with relatively few hits, gain an advantage under our damage modeling beyond what they would have historically.

Someone suggesting allowing the Allies access to limited numbers of Spit Vs--present in limited numbers later in the battle--and I wonder if that might be a good idea after seeing the results of this frame. A handful of cannon-armed Vs will help offset the significant lack of firepower on the Allied side.

Another option may be to remove formations from the Ju-88s.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline branch37

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2009, 07:49:23 PM »
Was the Spit V involved at the time?

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Offline Saxman

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2009, 08:36:30 PM »
I think someone posted the V appeared later in the battle.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline branch37

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2009, 08:39:21 PM »
If it was there historically, then it should be there in the game.  If it was not there, then it should not be there.  :salute

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Offline Squire

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2009, 08:59:48 PM »
Neg on the Spit V. It entered service in Feb 1941, some 4 months after the Battle of Britain.

Whats the big issue with the frame results? the LW had 40 more players and only shot down 10 more a/c? whats the big panic all about? Maybe have a look at the logs. Sure some squads had rough nights, on both sides, and some hade great nights, on both sides. The LW lost 112 a/c to the 303cal armed fighters.

...I have said this a few times before, and I will repeat it. The problem is often players who are too used to flying MA 1944 rides that have batteries of cannon and/or heavy MGs. This is a 1940 setup. Not 1944. The 8 x 303s will do fine if used properly. You dont fire at 400 yards, thats too far. You have the conv set to 200-250, and you fire when you have a target. They do just fine.

The 109E-4 has some drawbacks as well, with only 60 rpg in the cannon drums, 2 short bursts and you are out, and all thats left is the 2 x 30s in the nose, and thats it. Hardly wopping firepower. That and the ballistics of the MG-FF cannons are terrible.

Bottom line is FSO represents different times of the war, and this is Early War, with Early War armament. Thems the breaks. After the BoB, the RAF switched to cannons, in 1941, largely as a result of the complaints of hitting power with just machine guns, so thats also part of the experience, you get a sense of the type of combats fought. Enjoy it for what it is, and when the next 1945 setup rolls around, you can revel in the better armament, only, your enemies will have it too.

 :salute





 
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 09:14:57 PM by Squire »
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2009, 09:42:41 PM »
The only thing that could possibly be missing from the British AF standpoint for the time period specified in this FSO (August 1940) is maybe the Spitfire Mk1B...but the cannons jammed really bad so you would be left with only 4 machine guns.


The 109E4 doesn't have a big armament advantage...the MG/FF (Ikaria 20mm machine gun) had a slow rate of fire and a slow muzzle velocity...you gotta be at D3 or closer to make them do much damage without running out of ammo on the first go. With only 2 MG17 7.9mm machine guns in the nose...not a powerful gun platform.



The Allies did pretty well this frame. We Luftwaffe flyers will be better prepared next frame...so enjoy the little light you got now.  :D
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Offline snakeplissken

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2009, 10:43:05 PM »
Quote
Your not kidding about that.  I had a Hurr on one of my Ju88 drone.  Poor guy must have spent all his ammo to get the kill and no luck.  Another squdi had five spits all over him.  They could not get any kills.  I don't know how Jerrie pull it off in the real BoB.


That's why the Hurri IIC upgraded to 4 20mm.......
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Offline oakranger

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2009, 01:38:54 AM »

That's why the Hurri IIC upgraded to 4 20mm.......

I quesion if the spit II and Hurr II saw action later in BoB.  The answer was no.
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Offline Nefarious

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2009, 10:55:36 AM »
From what I have read the Ju88 suffered the most losses from July to October out of the main 3 German Bombers. (He111, Do17, Ju88) That stat (like a few others) just doesn't seem to translate into all Aces High Special Events.

I'm not complaining, In fact I am going to do my best to change that in Frame 2.  ;)
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Chapel

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2009, 11:19:00 AM »

Whats the big issue with the frame results? the LW had 40 more players and only shot down 10 more a/c? whats the big panic all about? Maybe have a look at the logs. Sure some squads had rough nights, on both sides, and some hade great nights, on both sides. The LW lost 112 a/c to the 303cal armed fighters.

...I have said this a few times before, and I will repeat it. The problem is often players who are too used to flying MA 1944 rides that have batteries of cannon and/or heavy MGs. This is a 1940 setup. Not 1944. The 8 x 303s will do fine if used properly. You dont fire at 400 yards, thats too far. You have the conv set to 200-250, and you fire when you have a target. They do just fine.

The 109E-4 has some drawbacks as well, with only 60 rpg in the cannon drums, 2 short bursts and you are out, and all thats left is the 2 x 30s in the nose, and thats it. Hardly wopping firepower. That and the ballistics of the MG-FF cannons are terrible.

It really just depends on what the goal of running the frame is.
Sure, the LW had 40 more pilots and only shot down 10 more A/C, but they also scored points in a massive way for bombing raids. All the Rolling Thunder were directed and advised to use a convergence of 200yds after many of our pilots did some extensive testing. And it worked great against fighters. However you can't sit at 200yrds attacking a bomber in ANY direction or you become paste on a plane.

I haven't seen the total roundabout scores, but I have a feeling it'll be severely lopsided towards the axis due to the bombing results. I think the only problem most of the allied pilots feel, is that they don't have a fighting chance to win. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be. But perhaps a swing in points could be worked out. Getting full points for the allied side for every A/C returned safely for example. The RAF was desperately short on A/C's during the Battle of Britain, and this emphasizes that. Because the allies can't bomb anything, they need a way to neutralize those bombing points. Or perhaps make hangers worth less, or shooting down the Ju-88's worth more. If our guys are going to give our lives trying to down those monstrous behemoths with nothing more than .303's, then at least make the risk worth it.

Not trying to dump on your parade and setup by any means, because I had a great time regardless of the results. Just offering input, cause I'm sure if the roles were reversed and the axis pilots were flying allied, they'd have the same concerns. I've flown in many BoB setups, and this seems to be the case in almost every one.

Oh, something else for the setup crew....though the allied pilots will probably flip me the *finger* and scream obscenities at me....
This was mentioned in our debriefing, and I've actually seen it done before in the S3 and it was incredibly fun.
The British were on a short leash and didn't usually have time to up their planes on any kind of notice. In fact, they'd usually have a fighting climb most of the way to protect their airfields.
Perhaps in a future setup or frame, make most of the British pilots sit on runway waiting to hear notice from the radar dudes. Once the Darbar goes off, and contact is confirmed, pilots scramble and climb to engage the incoming threat.

<S> to the Setup and CM team. Doing a wonderful job and many of our guys appreciate the hard work and effort you put into the FSO.

Chapel
Rolling Thunder

Offline Shifty

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2009, 11:22:17 AM »
I quesion if the spit II and Hurr II saw action later in BoB.  The answer was no.

Well we don't have the Spit MK II in AH. There Hurricane Mk II A Series 1 was operational in Sept 1940, the A series 2 became operational in October 1940.
However both of these aircraft were still armed with 8 303 MGs not 4x 20mm cannon like the AH Mk IIC which didn't begin production until early 1941.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 11:56:32 AM by Shifty »

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: FSO: The Alderangriff - Quick Air to Air Stats
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2009, 11:39:08 AM »
A51 wasn't even scratched.  The Ju88s that were assigned to hit it didn't do so well: we shot them all down.  :)

Btw, if you're having trouble with the .303s, bring your convergence back to a range that seems silly and unreasonable, like 175 yards.  All of my kills on Friday took one good squirt of .303s.  Even the Ju-88 I shot down popped when the .303s hit at the same point. :aok

As for the results, they're no big deal.  I doubt that in the real BoB RAF Hurricane pilots went on sweeps toward France looking for 109s to fight with.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 11:47:10 AM by Anaxogoras »
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