Author Topic: P-63 King Cobra  (Read 14565 times)

Offline Vinkman

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #105 on: November 03, 2009, 10:03:48 AM »
They recovered and restored 4 Ki-43s from the Kamchatka Penninsula.  Not sure
where they are now, probably west coast.

(Image removed from quote.)

http://www.btillman.com/oscars.htm

Nice plane. Thanks for Posting. I was really trying to get Karnak to reference the P-63 posts about it being a completely different plane because most of those references that I've read online also state the P-63 saw actions against the Germans..but now you ruined it!  ;)

But since he's picking on my plane, I'll pick on his. This looks like every other Japanese plane in the game. would it fly very different from what's in AH already? So from an historical perspective the Oscar rates high, but from a "give pilots something new and unique to fly" standpoint wouldn't this be pretty low?

So I think we all violently agree that historical significance is important, and I can't make a good case for the P-63 on those grounds. My point was that the brewester was not a significant player in the war and it's in the game. So I think there are other reason to add planes. How much fun and different they are to fly should be a consideration. The armament and arrangement make the P-63 plane very unique. The Army decided it wasn't better than P-51 and it was more expensive, so they couldn't justify buying it. But what if the Army was wrong?.  I think it would be fun to see what this plane could do against all the planes that actually got a chance to mix it up in big numbers. This is a big part of what this game is about...Mustangs fighting Lightnings, 109 fighting Zeros...it's getting to see the Dream matchups that NEVER happened.  

I think many of us wonder what this plane could do if it got the chance. I think that's a big draw for adding it.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #106 on: November 03, 2009, 10:18:31 AM »
Ki-43 would be the lightest built, lightest armed, and most agile fighter in the planeset.  It would significantly out turn the A6M2.

In addition there are many, many scenarios where it is needed as the primary Axis opposition.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #107 on: November 03, 2009, 10:24:48 AM »
Ki-43 would be the lightest built, lightest armed, and most agile fighter in the planeset.  It would significantly out turn the A6M2.

In addition there are many, many scenarios where it is needed as the primary Axis opposition.

Which is pretty much EVERY aerial engagement in which the IJAAF participated (in other words, any PTO setup except for the carrier battles).
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Widewing

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #108 on: November 03, 2009, 07:38:02 PM »
awwrgway Please do a little research before you speak. I am not gunna go find the multiple googleings and what not I looked at and read about the 39 and its prototype and how the belle company was basically bankrupt when they finnally were able to sell the 39 bringing them outta the gutter so please check it out you might enjoy the nice history of the 39. {Side Note I would love to get some of the modified 39's The russians went to town on the 39's suping them up and stuff with all sorts of stuff from minor to major like replacing the engine with something better}
The 39 got pimped out by some ^.^ it was a plane that got some personal loving.

You know, I don't see one supposed fact here that is supported by history.

The XP-39 was fitted with a turbocharger, and at altitude flirted with 400 mph. However, it had no armor, no guns or any other government supplied equipment. When NACA was done with wind tunnel testing, they recommended several changes. Larger rudder, reduced wing span and eliminate the turbo were the biggest. To get an Army contract, Bell acquiesced and redesigned the fighter.

I have not found one documented instance where the Soviets hot-rodded a P-39. The typical Soviet mechanic was hard pressed to perform routine maintenance, given the level of their training. I've seen no documentation than any Soviet P-39 flew in combat with anything other than an Allison engine, and a stock one at that. I you have some, please post it as it would be enlightening to many of us.

No question Bell was in financial difficulty by 1940. Their XFM-1 and YFM-1 Airacuda was a turkey, and it had eaten up most of the Bell's expendable capital. However, Larry Bell was smart enough to recognize that he had to bend if the P-39 was ever to advance beyond a single prototype.


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Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Widewing

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #109 on: November 03, 2009, 07:39:24 PM »
So you compared the p39 to the p63? I stated that the p39's prototype was closer to the p63 than the p39 ever was to the prototype.

And you statement is completely incorrect.....



My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Greziz

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2009, 10:16:06 AM »
Wikipedia under the russian use of the plane is very quick to state that many of the russians removed the wing guns as a modification to help it fly in a manner that they felt was better. also I came across this bit of tid bit info looking for info on a forum called ww2 aircraft.net and I found it to look very legit in detail but I can prove nothing it is a combat record of the p63 I found this looking for examples of a p39 being modded but I am having trouble locating with search anything that isnt a game mod or racing mod even though I know I read in one of my p39 info searchings a breif mention of how many of the russians liked to mod their planes from removing wing guns to simply modding their guns to all fire with one button press.
P-63 Combat Record

Total P-63 production was 3,303 airframes. 2,421 of these were shipped to the Soviet Union and just over 100 to the Armee d l'Air. The USAAF held on to a few for training.

The USAAF's interest went no further than target practice for bomber gunners after their High Command realised the shortcomings of the bombers' ability to defend itself using gunnery. This was Operation Pinball and entailed a P-63 being shot at with frangible rounds that lit up a light on the a/c when strikes were recorded.

Two P-63s were sent to England, where considerable interest in the merits of laminar-flow led them to take delivery of a P-63A-6 (42-68937) and a P-63A-9 (42-69423) to the RAE at Farnborough. In the course of its study, the A-6 was fitted with the streamlined bubble canopy. This a/c was damaged in a landing accident and was SOC on 18Oct45. The rest of the laminar-flow study was undertaken by the A-9 and it was finally scrapped Sep48.

One Central American country received a batch of P-63s, this being Honduras, taking on charge 5 P-63E-1s and along with 6 P-38Ls made up the mainstay of their airforce for over 5 years. One of these was damaged and provided the surviving 4 with much-needed spares. Two more were damaged and eventually all of them were replaced by F4Us.

P-63s were ferried to the Soviet Union in larger numbers than all other recipients combined, starting with the P-63C, pausing at way-stations in Alaska and Iran (imagine that). It is widely held that the P-63's reputation was short-changed as it never received the local press of the Ilyushin-2 Shturmovik, despite its proven abilities in ground attack and tank-busting.

The Soviets continued military action in the Far East, furthering their acquisition of Manchuria by annexing Sakhalin Island and parts of the Kuriles chain. The Japanese, though exhausted from WWII, fought back and destroyed 62 Soviet aircraft of all types, including 1 P-63, the details of which are unknown.

Just before the end of WWII, the USAAF began transferring P-63s to France for use by the Armee de l'Air. All a/c supplied were the penultimate P-63C-5 model.
The French originally placed an order for 300 a/c though this was later reduced to about one third of that. An initial contract for 40 a/c was signed on 03May45 and a second for 70 a/c on 04Jun45, totalling 112 a/c to which two more were added.
The P-63 was originally intended to directly supplant the existing P-39Q and L fighters but some went straight from the docks into storage. Others were used to equip several Armee de l'Air squadrons; GC9 based in Meknes, Morocco became the first to fully equip on the type.
Trouble brewed for the French in Indo-China, where the locals felt they had earned the right to govern themselves after contributing to the ousting of the Japanese during the previous war. The colonial powers had other ideas and armed conflict was on the cards.
85 P-63s were shipped to Indo-China between July and October 1950 for use by 5 Groupes on a rotational basis.
Most of these were the a/c that had been shipped straight into storage. All were armed with the standard centreline M-10 37mm cannon with 58 rounds plus 4 x .50cal machine guns, 2 in the nose and 2 in underwing gondolas. A 175gal contoured belly tank was usuallly carried and this could be supplemented by 75gal tanks outboard of the underwing guns. This fuel could be swapped for napalm or 2 500lb bombs. The centreline rack was wired for bomb release and provision was made for paired wing launchers for up to 4 HVAR rockets.

30 August 50: Ground attack sorties by 5 P-63s against Viet Minh troops.

04 September: Strafing missions against guerilla hide-outs and storage dumps; their cannons and machine guns were used to deadly effect.

Further shipments of P-63s were made to Saigon and the French had about 50 a/c in-theatre with about 10 held at an MU, Parc 482.

10 January: Less than spectacular debut for napalm

19 January: Loss of first P-63 to flak

The Viet Minh, by now being supplied by the Chinese, were getting stronger and French installations were occasionally overrun in the frequent attacks.

13 February: Air support for the garrison at Phu Loc failed to prevent it from falling

3 August: Having flown 3,703 hours of combat sorties in their P-63s, GCI/5 prepared to return home. II/5 and III/6 maintained the pressure on the guerillas but without appreciably decreasing the Viet Minh's hold on the country. The Armee de l'Air found themselves frustrated by an enemy who rarely went 'toe to toe' with them in pitched battles.

9 August: P-63 lost to flak

4 October: P-63 damaged by flak in the same area

6 October: A detachment of P-63s was sent to Lang Son to provide cover for a supply route favoured by the French.

17 October: Lt Perrotte made an emergency landing on Lang Son after being hit by small-arms fire and his a/c started streaming glycol. The French had to abandon Lang Son quickly and another P-63 was sent to destroy Perrotte's machine with a strafing run.

Normandie-Niemen arrive in-theatre, commanded by Capitaine Billoin.

3 November: III/6 moved to Cat Bi near Haiphong, where it steadily increased its sortie rate against an increasingly tough enemy who had gained control of the countryside, if not the towns.

12 February: III/6 had flown its 1,000th sortie.

March: Normandie-Niemen P-63s used for napalm against large-scale attack on Viet Minh infantry at Tra Vinh.

5 May: Loss of P-63 to flak

14 September: Loss of P-63 to flak

22 October: Loss of P-63 to flak

By the time of that last loss, the P-63 was being supplanted by the F8-F

December: Enough F8-Fs in-theatre, P-63 sorties began to tail off

January 51: 8 P-63s attack ground targets at Cho Phong

19 January: 2 P-63s fly armed recce along Thai Nguyen, flak claim one a/c

20 January: Loss of P-63 to flak

28 January: 2 P-63s failed to return from rocket strike south of Thai Nguyen

In 76 missions, I/9 lost 8 pilots and 9 a/c.

Viet Minh troops were now engaging crack French regiments in pitched battles, the P-63s supported with bombing, strafing and rocket attacks against troops and strongholds wherever they could be found. Eventually, the F8-F and F6-F completely replaced the P-63s and the F8-F in particular proved its superiority over the P-63 in the harsh conditions of Indo-China.

30 April: 24 P-63s bombed Quynh Lu, 21 of the 24 bombs hit the target.

At the end of their service 25 P-63s had been lost on ops or in accidents, 20 were SOC as war weary and 40 still in good condition were earmarked for shipment to Africa.

Sources
Bell P-39 Airacobra
Robert F Dorr & Jerry C Scutts
Crowood Aviation Series
ISBN:1 86126 348 1
Pages 134 - 144
not typed verbatim

Offline Greziz

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #111 on: November 06, 2009, 10:27:48 AM »
As for any solid info on actual modifications I will get back to you on that. I found this awesome website that seems to have some very educated folks of ww2 happenings and I have recently registered and made my first post hopeful I can get some good sources and input on this forum that will help me track down some good info.

Offline Greziz

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #112 on: November 06, 2009, 10:31:15 AM »
Sorry about the small combat log I posted of the p63 I just red it a wee bit more theroughly it seems to be detailing events that happened about 1950's still fairly interesting stuff though but doesn't help with its involvement in ww2 much

Offline Greziz

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #113 on: November 06, 2009, 10:39:40 AM »
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=140

This little site excerpt has alot of the info I have blurted before without this source as I forgot it but I found it again and quickly favorited it and placed it down.

Offline Timofei

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #114 on: November 06, 2009, 11:09:14 AM »
The XP-39 was fitted with a turbocharger, and at altitude flirted with 400 mph.

Seen this ?
http://www.enginehistory.org/Convention/2009/Presentations/SuperchargingAllison.pdf

Quote: "The NACA put the aircraft in its wind tunnel and determined the problem was largely due to the poor configuration and integration of the turbosupercharger with the engine. From this it was determined that the airplane would never meet its requirements with the turbo.."
It seems to have been far from 400mph.
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Offline Westy

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2009, 11:48:00 AM »
"This little site excerpt has alot of the info I have blurted before without this
source as I forgot it but I found it again and quickly favorited it and placed it down."

I can't even begin to say what I think about wikipedia articles. They're worse
than these so called "documentaries" put on by the History channel in the U.S.

Anyway that article you cite on the militaryfactory site has all the substance as
anything else posted anonymously on the internet. It is an opinion piece until
it's backed up by references. Hell, it's not even credited to anyone nor signed
with an author's name.

Sorry dood. Just because you read it on "the internet" doesn't make it factual.

Offline Vinkman

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #116 on: November 06, 2009, 12:28:48 PM »
"This little site excerpt has alot of the info I have blurted before without this
source as I forgot it but I found it again and quickly favorited it and placed it down."

I can't even begin to say what I think about wikipedia articles. They're worse
than these so called "documentaries" put on by the History channel in the U.S.

Anyway that article you cite on the militaryfactory site has all the substance as
anything else posted anonymously on the internet. It is an opinion piece until
it's backed up by references. Hell, it's not even credited to anyone nor signed
with an author's name.

Sorry dood. Just because you read it on "the internet" doesn't make it factual.

Very true. But the one I keep coming back to is the Russiam pilot who, in his memior says they has a squarden of P-63s fighting the Nazi's. I'm not sure why that does't count as documented. Agreed there are levels of proof, such as serial numbers etched on parts that were found at crash sites. But that can't be the only acceptible proof?
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Offline Karnak

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #117 on: November 06, 2009, 12:44:07 PM »
Very true. But the one I keep coming back to is the Russiam pilot who, in his memior says they has a squarden of P-63s fighting the Nazi's. I'm not sure why that does't count as documented. Agreed there are levels of proof, such as serial numbers etched on parts that were found at crash sites. But that can't be the only acceptible proof?
That isn't the only proof.  You can also have things like records of sending aircraft to certain units, loss records of aircraft and such.  Official documentation.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #118 on: November 06, 2009, 12:45:11 PM »
Seen this ?
http://www.enginehistory.org/Convention/2009/Presentations/SuperchargingAllison.pdf

Quote: "The NACA put the aircraft in its wind tunnel and determined the problem was largely due to the poor configuration and integration of the turbosupercharger with the engine. From this it was determined that the airplane would never meet its requirements with the turbo.."
It seems to have been far from 400mph.

That table in Dan Whitney's piece appears to reflect NACA's speed estimates based upon wind tunnel data. I believe that all flight testing by the Army was done at Wright Field. A now deceased friend of mine was there at the time. He was a test pilot involved with testing the YP-37 and YFM-1.

I have seen test data for the XP-39. Test pilot Jimmy Taylor reported 390 mph (corrected airspeed) on April 6, 1939. He also stated that XP-39 had gone even faster later in the flight test program (he estimated 398 mph).

Whitney also states that the P-63 was "an enlarged version of the P-39 fitted with a laminar flow wing." This is incorrect as the two aircraft were similar in layout, but even more different than the P-47 was from the P-43. Virtually no commonality of airframe components.


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Widewing

My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Vinkman

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Re: P-63 King Cobra
« Reply #119 on: November 06, 2009, 01:51:22 PM »
That isn't the only proof.  You can also have things like records of sending aircraft to certain units, loss records of aircraft and such.  Official documentation.

Yes. Alas that seemed to be the great ptoblem with P-63 records is the strange agreeement that said they couldn't use them in western front. Maybe that needs to be researched. Can that possibly be true?  and why whould it be so? I've accepted that wit hout seing any documentation on that which should be findable since it would be U.S. documents that say it. Hmmm. I smell research project.
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