Author Topic: You think F-15s are cool?  (Read 2213 times)

Offline eagl

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #60 on: November 07, 2009, 10:11:18 PM »
There is another thread in here where I went into great detail why the russian videos are not nearly as impressive to a real fighter pilot as the F-22 demo is.  I'll try to summarize...

Although the russian planes can really wave the nose around, they're falling and pretty much out of control after each extreme maneuver.  Watch carefully, and you see that the nose slices a bit and the plane rotates the same way every single time as the plane flops down to regain speed after the maneuvers.  That's probably engine torque as the engine mass is rotated when the nose falls, but it could be something as simple as a surface imperfection in the paint on the nose.  The point is that the plane is simply falling until it regains maneuvering airspeed.  An F-18 is very nearly as capable at high angles of attack, and the only reason why an F-18 can't do a cobra maneuver is because it isn't terribly useful to intentionally fall out of the sky.  An F-18 CAN however wave the nose around with a very good amount of control, up to approx 45 degrees in any direction.  That's pretty darn good for a 4th gen fighter and only the low thrust/weight of the hornet puts it at a disadvantage to the russian fighters in a close-in fight.  An F-18 with 50% more thrust would, in a guns-only dogfight, be superior to almost anything except an F-22.

The F-22 is a completely different animal.  Where the russian planes flop down to get airspeed, the F-22 simply points the nose and accelerates out in the direction it's told to by the pilot.  I've seen live demos by both planes and the SU-27 family and variants aren't even close.
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Offline EskimoJoe

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2009, 04:20:23 AM »
Put a +1 on your geekness atribute  :aok

Offline sntslilhlpr6601

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2009, 09:22:22 AM »
...and Amanda Tapping will knock on my door asking me to do her in the pooper  :pray  .

Aw man. I call seconds.  :lol

Offline Raptor

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2009, 01:04:44 PM »
Dude...puff, puff pass!! Stop bogarting whatever it is your smoking. The day a Mig-29 or SU-27 can keep up with a Raptor peace will break out in the middle east, cats and dogs will be living together, and Amanda Tapping will knock on my door asking me to do her in the pooper  :pray  .


« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 01:09:07 PM by Raptor »

Offline Yeager

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2009, 02:16:25 PM »
Id like to see the Super Hornets go against the SU-37.
There is still time for this to happen.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2009, 02:18:47 PM »
Can't wait for this thread to turn into yet another F/A-22 pwns all debait.

only till someone figures out how to get a virus into it's network.
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Offline allaire

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2009, 02:47:16 PM »
Then will it cease to function or go some other route?
"I drank what?" -Socrates

Offline CAP1

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2009, 03:43:30 PM »
Then will it cease to function or go some other route?

not sure. they seem to be pretty reliant on their computers though....and they are networked to each other, and most probably a command base. and we all know how computers, and networks are. they ALL can be hacked eventually.

i do, however, hope i'm wrong.
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Offline allaire

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2009, 04:13:46 PM »
I was thinking about a "Wargames" type of situation happening.  Except with the computer taking control of them. :noid
"I drank what?" -Socrates

Offline Kurtank

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2009, 05:50:46 PM »
I really don't trust the results of the India exercise. I mean really, if you are in a situation where MIG FREAKING 21'S can beat an F-15 in a2a, you've got your handicaps set wrong.

Which is exactly what happened. The American pilots were handicapped, not allowed to use either BVR or long range WVR systems, restricted to guns and AIM-9's. At that range, a good MiG-29 pilot can pretty simply grease an F-15. Simple fact was that the rules were set up to give the Indians and Russians a nice pen0r extension. The F-15's were restricted from their strongest traits, being speed and BVR combat. MiG fighters are simply better equipped for a close in knife fight, for now at least.

The MiG-21's though, those are just freaking weird. There is no reason for a MiG-21 to beat an F-15. Absolutely none.
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Offline Spikes

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2009, 06:39:13 PM »
Can't wait for this thread to turn into yet another F/A-22 pwns all debait.
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2009, 07:28:10 PM »
Kazaa called it!

Absolutely, but then again, Kazaa didn't want experts like Eagl chiming in to rain on the Soviet love parade either. 


Plain and simple, American technology is still light years ahead of anything fielded by the Chinese, Indians, or former Soviets.  We'll likely keep it that way for years to come.
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Offline eagl

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2009, 07:36:28 PM »
I didn't post to thump my chest about F-22 superiority...  Rather the F-22 (and the F-18 in my post) were examples of what the flanker variants are being drooled over for, even though the flanker is simply pointing it's nose and then falling out of the sky as it regains airspeed, relying on natural stability to recover instead of relying on an inherent capability for extreme maneuvering at any speed or flightpath angle.

The F-18 is an example of a plane that *could* maneuver like a flanker, and in fact is very controllable up to 45 degrees of alpha, but it can't do the weird maneuvers because there just isn't any point.  The F-22 is the opposite example, a plane that was designed from the beginning to fly backwards, sideways, etc., and remain fully controllable.

The flanker is more maneuverable than the F-15 and F-16, no question about it.  But as cool looking as the flanker airshow demo looks the first time you see it, if you examine it more closely it is obvious that the pilot is essentially maneuvering the plane to an out of control situation and then relying on the plane's stability to get it flying again.  The clues are as I stated before, with the most obvious ones being the nose flopping down every time to regain airspeed, the almost complete lack of flight control surface movement during the follow-through and recovery from the maneuvers, and the slight but consistent yaw and roll every single time the plane exits a maneuver.  That's why although the flanker is a very respected match for the F-15, the extreme maneuverability is not why F-15 pilots respect the flanker and it's not why the F-22 is needed.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 07:39:10 PM by eagl »
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Offline CAP1

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2009, 10:41:56 PM »
Absolutely, but then again, Kazaa didn't want experts like Eagl chiming in to rain on the Soviet love parade either. 


Plain and simple, American technology is still light years ahead of anything fielded by the Chinese, Indians, or former Soviets.  We'll likely keep it that way for years to come.


but, grass hoppah......where do the electronics IN our aircraft come from? :neener:
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: You think F-15s are cool?
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2009, 11:14:50 PM »
F-15 pilot on the Su-30MKI and Raptor after Red Flag '08:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2siH9W5P4E

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfXBoeV86Yo

The video he was talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gkWK0OvAc

Pretty cool.
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