Author Topic: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)  (Read 32862 times)

Offline thorsim

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #270 on: December 14, 2009, 12:20:40 AM »
hehe well after seeing the video that you posted i see you are an expert in the condition illustrated below ...

were you the model?



if i read this thread correct somone (thorism)is asking for a fight between a 109 and 51 , you keep talking about wieght and turning,
not sure what else?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuBiMM7VGh8
Theroism this is for you but you have yet to prove anything at all

except
(Image removed from quote.)
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #271 on: December 14, 2009, 12:59:28 AM »
no, my original point here is that the best most advantageous way for a f4u to fight a 109 is by using it's speed and speed retention advantage ...

i do think the 109s best fight advantage is the maneuver fight over the f4u ...

in both the game and TRW ...

i think the 109 maneuvers better than the hog through the vast majority of their respective envelopes and would expect the 109 to be the clearly superior maneuver fighter.  

hence my initial reaction to the premise that the reverse were true.

as far as the video goes you are assuming a lot from a guys first five minutes in a cockpit of a plane he has never flown, quite frankly so was he.  would you consider him expert enough to offer a definitive evaluation of the me109?




i consider him more knowledgable then either you or i, as he flies spitfires, is fmaliar with them, and pointed out honestly what he likes about the cockpit in the 109, along with it's disadvantages.
 as far as him being an expert? i don't know if he is or isn't, but as you could see from the video, he ws skinny...and couldn;t move the stick all the way.

ingame 1LTCAP
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Offline Raptor

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #272 on: December 14, 2009, 01:01:17 AM »
One of the signs that you are losing a debate is when you start personal attacks. Ever since HiTech's most recent post you have done just that. Read Baumer's post, or does that contain too much information for you? Will someone make him an outline before he gets banned?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 01:14:31 AM by Raptor »

Offline CAP1

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #273 on: December 14, 2009, 01:03:01 AM »
One of the signs that you are losing a debate is when you start personal attacks. Ever since HiTech's most recent post you have done just that. Read Baumer's post, or does that contain too much information for you? Will someone make him an outline before he gets banned?

i think htc's gettin a laugh outta this.
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Offline cattb

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #274 on: December 14, 2009, 01:10:40 AM »
hes gonna keep arguing for the point of it, thats the reason why i posted what i did ( really shouldn't of but did anyway ).
i be surprised if this thread dosn't get locked
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #275 on: December 14, 2009, 01:12:54 AM »
i believe i may have responded to a personal attack

One of the signs that you are losing a debate is when you start personal attacks. Ever since HiTech's most recent post you have done just that. Read Baumer's post, or does that contain too much information for you? Will someone make him an outline before he gets banned?
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Raptor

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #276 on: December 14, 2009, 01:14:41 AM »
Think about this, if you take two identical versions of the spitfire. However the only difference between the two are the wing types. One has a standard wing and one has a clipped wing. Now, both versions have the same fuselage, engine, etc. The clipped wing version will lose some weight by removing several pounds of wing area. So now the clipped wing spitfire is lighter and in turn smaller than the standard spitfire. However the standard spitfire will turn a sharper circle than the clipped wing spitfire. This is a real world, to comprehend example of a larger, heavier airframe turning sharper than a smaller, larger airframe.

On the other hand the clipped wing spitfire reduces the amount of drag and increases its speed and roll rate.

Offline thorsim

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #277 on: December 14, 2009, 01:17:41 AM »
which one maneuvers better ?

Think about this, if you take two identical versions of the spitfire. However the only difference between the two are the wing types. One has a standard wing and one has a clipped wing. Now, both versions have the same fuselage, engine, etc. The clipped wing version will lose some weight by removing several pounds of wing area. So now the clipped wing spitfire is lighter and in turn smaller than the standard spitfire. However the standard spitfire will turn a sharper circle than the clipped wing spitfire. This is a real world, to comprehend example of a larger, heavier airframe turning sharper than a smaller, larger airframe.

On the other hand the clipped wing spitfire reduces the amount of drag and increases its speed and roll rate.
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Axis Co-Op
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blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
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Offline oakranger

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #278 on: December 14, 2009, 01:54:38 AM »
that, i think was one of his points.

i never told him about the fw pilots i met in florida when i went there for my neices birthday......but they said the exact same things about the fw's that he did.

he was a good man, and we all miss him at the club.

 we've lost him, and we lost joe the year before. joe was a top turret gunner on a b17. we still have tom, who was also a pony driver. he's hard to get started talking. once we get him going though, it's awsome to listen.
 :aok

WOW.  I think these guys want the young ppl to listen to their stories.  Your lucky to meet ppl like that and i hope that they happy to share their stories.   :salute
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Offline Raptor

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #279 on: December 14, 2009, 02:48:37 AM »
which one maneuvers better ?

Maneuverability:
1 a : to perform a movement in military or naval strategy in order to secure an advantage
   b : to make a series of changes in direction and position for a specific purpose
2 : to use stratagems

That would depend on the pilot skill... The standard spitfire would have better turning maneuverability and the clipped wing spit would have better rolling maneuverability. Both have an advantage in one mean of changing direction (standard spit has advantage in turn rate and clipped wing spit has advantage in roll rate).

In a fight based on maneuverability i would give the edge to the standard spitfire. It can turn sharper and has a lower stall speed. In a fight based on tactics however, I would give the edge to the clipped wing spit (Maneuvering vs Energy Fighting).


In aerodynamics, wing loading is the loaded weight of the aircraft divided by the area of the wing. The faster an aircraft flies, the more lift is produced by each unit area of wing, so a smaller wing can carry the same weight in level flight, operating at a higher wing loading. Correspondingly, the landing and take-off speeds will be higher. The high wing loading also decreases maneuverability.

When discussing turn rate, that is why wing loading (which others have discussed before) is so important. The P38 may be a very large aircraft, but in turn it has very large wings. Not to mention its flap design further increases its wing size at no additional cost of weight.  This allows a larger P38 to out maneuver a smaller P51.

Change for thought:
The wing loading of a spit v is roughly 120
The wing loading of a C47 is roughly 123
The wing loading of a B-17 is roughly 190
The wing loading of a 109 is roughly 210
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 03:05:32 AM by Raptor »

Offline sandwich

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #280 on: December 14, 2009, 05:35:50 AM »
.Hijack Thread

What ever hapened to the original question?

Offline thndregg

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #281 on: December 14, 2009, 07:25:29 AM »
which one maneuvers better ?


You must have no life. Spending all this time, camping this thread. Winter must really have you holed up. Don't you have a driveway to shovel? Or perhaps that would lead to "which shovel performs better?" Gahh... :huh :huh :huh

EDIT: I just answered my own question. The one with LESS <<CRAP>> on it.
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Offline pervert

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #282 on: December 14, 2009, 07:34:10 AM »
there modeled correctly if nationality is your criteria ...


Yawn! what a load of bull the 109k4 is arguably the best fighter in the game! You think HTC has an anti German agenda here when they also give it huge wep time as well? What a load of clap trap if they were doing this for gain as Skip said about CRS in the video then their 'cash cow' to fiddle with would be the P-51D 'a plane that Hitech has actually flew btw' it would outturn everything in sight and generally be uber in every way in game thats NOT the case.
In a equal turning fight with f4 g2 g6 g14 k4 it will lose that fight where is the nationality bias here?? F4U is a lot closer but again it can easily be done in a 109. My guess is you've just been running into players who are better pilots than yourself, to delude yourself into thinking you are only losing because HTC are scupcakeing around a PC with their anti-luftwaffe agenda is sad. If you would spend more time with a trainer 'if your ego will allow that' and less time typing conspiracy theory on the bbs you might figure out how to beat these 'rigged' aircraft.

Offline dedalos

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #283 on: December 14, 2009, 07:47:15 AM »
So, what about Thrust Vectoring?  Did you guys include that in your calculations?  :D
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)
« Reply #284 on: December 14, 2009, 07:57:21 AM »
WOW.  I think these guys want the young ppl to listen to their stories.  Your lucky to meet ppl like that and i hope that they happy to share their stories.   :salute

I wish we could all get to talk to these guys more.

doing a training class at trenton/mercer airport, the collings foundation flew in their b-25, b-17, and b-24.
 when we took our lunch break, we all headed down to the bombers. met a guy there that'd flown 14 missions on a 24 over europe.
 this cool old dude had one of his bail-out kits, pictures of some of his drops, etc. none of us ate lunch that day, as we were all late getting back to our class. there were about 20 of us(Civil Air Patrol) gathered around him, listening, and we all shook his hand, and thanked him before we left.
ingame 1LTCAP
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