Author Topic: the not so studly Mustang (Read 3978 times)

juzz · « **Reply #90 on:** November 14, 1999, 09:56:00 PM »

IF they did the Me163 with some of its faults, it would be damn hard to get kills in anyway in AH - can't push negative G unless you wanna go glider, 4 mins powered flying time, goes too damn fast for effective gunnery, and you would probably get vulched on landing all the time.

The only thing it would be good for is it's historical role, intercepting high flying bombers and reconnaissance planes.

Maybe they should have pre-war, early war, mid war, late war, post war(uberplanes) and jet arenas in AH? That way everyones happy

Westy · « **Reply #91 on:** November 15, 1999, 08:11:00 AM »

> As for P-47M, think about it. It might be
> 'anything goes' approach, and then LW
> pilots would have every right to ask for
> Me 262 and Me 163

Well. I am thinking about it. When someone mentions the TA-152 or the D9 I like to wish for other late war Uber planes too.
The P47M saw more combat than the TA-152 but not as much as the D9. Probably saw as much and had better success than the ME163.

"After that, the 56th's only real challengers in the air were the new
Messerschmitt Me-262 jet fighters. The Wolfpack had downed jets before with lucky passing shots or by catching them over their runways. They had stuck with the Jug when all other groups went to P-51s, and were the sole recipients of the P-47M--upengined to produce 465 mph (more speed than a Mustang)--with which they could handle combat on the jets'
terms. On April 5, 1945, a Wolfpack pilot actually ran down a 262 in a shallow dive.
Attempting to outturn the P-47, the German pilot was cut off and shot down."

The difference between many Japanese and German Uber planes and American or even English super planes was that when the German and Japanese planes were pushed out the hangar or factory door it was by definition 'in combat' even if the thing never got off the ground. Amercian and British planes did not have fighters straffing fields and factories like they Axis countries did.
Americans could train in their new planes un hammpered where as German trainees often found a flight Mustangs or Tempests flying thru and chomping thier flights to pieces.

So in my eyes if the F8F, F7F. P51H, P82 or the P47M were either on station in small numbers or even on their way by ship it still counts.

They were ALL produced in numbers before the end of the war - having done ariel combat is a stance that favours (too much) the late war
German and Japanese rides.

-Westy

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #92 on:** November 15, 1999, 11:28:00 AM »

Dang... you must be my long-lost sibling or something, Westy.

One thing you missed... the fact that the US actually familiarized pilots with new aircraft.

For example, only two Staffel (sp?) were ever officially converted over to the 190D. The rest just received deliveries of the Dora and learned the aircraft on the job.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 11-15-1999).]

Hristo · « **Reply #93 on:** November 15, 1999, 12:08:00 PM »

Since I was quoted, I have to proceed with this argument

Again, D-9 is not an uberplane. It is the match for P-51D. Period.

I am against Ta-152, because it will be flown in greater numbers in AH, than it was its whole production.

Westy, are you some kind of a lawyer or something ?

If you want to ruin the sim, just bring in all the planes that ever saw combat on Allied side, even by your standards, Westy. They won't ruin the sim. It is the Luftwaffe answer that will ruin it.

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Hristo

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #94 on:** November 15, 1999, 03:40:00 PM »

I dunno... I've run into people who consider the 51 to be an uberplane.

Personally, I like to look at them as "late war" planes.

From my perspective, the German response isn't really all that significant because I don't particularly want to include Jets in the mix.

The why to that is quite simple... the movement from the Se5a -> Gloster Gladiator -> bf109 -> Spitfire V -> FW190 -> P-51 -> Sea Fury is merely evolutionary in nature.

However the jump from Piston to Jet powered aircraft is revolutionary and, IMO, doesn't make for good gameplay (unless you want to fly jets). Every prop uberplane has its match... but no prop can match an intelligently flown jet (short of vulching fields).

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

funked · « **Reply #95 on:** November 15, 1999, 04:08:00 PM »

Why are the jets a waste of time? They fought in WW2, and they fought well.

funked · « **Reply #96 on:** November 15, 1999, 04:19:00 PM »

FWIW the RAE tests of the Fw 190D-9 showed 435mph at 25k (dry WEP) and 440 mph at 16k (MW50).

The P-51D was probably faster above 25k (two stage supercharger vs. single stage in the Jumo 213A-1), but below that altitude, the D-9 would be tough to catch.

Also there is apparently some new research indicating that 1200 or so Doras were built. I don't have the source, so take it with a grain of salt.

They were definitely a significant part of Luftwaffe fighter strength over the last 9 months of the war. Don't forget they were fighting the USSR as well as the USA/UK.

juzz · « **Reply #97 on:** November 15, 1999, 07:50:00 PM »

FWIW
From J.F. Baugher history on P47

Quote

The first P-47M was delivered in December 1944, and they were rushed to the 56th Fighter Group in Europe. However, engine problems delayed their use until the last few weeks of the war in Europe.

Me163B flew its first combat mission 13 May 1944.

Quote

Every prop uberplane has its match... but no prop can match an intelligently flown jet (short of vulching fields).

Make that - intelligently flown German jet - Allied jets sucked, and you know it

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #98 on:** November 15, 1999, 07:59:00 PM »

Jets are a waste for two reasons IMO:

Only other jets can compete with jets. If someone wants to make a "early jets" game, my recommendation would be to start in 1946 and run through 1953 or so. For gameplay, jets simply stink...

Jets might be workable if they were placed under the same constraints as WW2 - _constant_ threat of vulching, severely limited numbers, and a wide range of engine problems (modeling jets "ideally" simply leads to greater play balance problems IMO). Having to land your jet at a specific "jet field" not to lose your limited "jet count" and so on.

Unfortunately, there isn't even a Sim with a decent CM tool yet, so I wouldn't hold my breath for all the aforementioned stuff. And, IMO without that "stuff", jets are basically unworkable with respect to good game balance.

Note: The Dora didn't equip its first squad until October 1944, and other squads didn't equip until late December. Based on that, I'd say that the Dora played a "minor" role for about 3 months, followed by a "significant" role for about 4 months.

And, like I said elsewhere, I could really care less... model the Dora, model the Tempest, model the Sea Fury and the Douglas Skyraider for all I care.

If its got a prop, model it.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

Westy · « **Reply #99 on:** November 16, 1999, 10:11:00 AM »

Well this is just so I clarify what my perspective is in regard to late war Uber-planes.

I'll fly anything from WWII. Even experimentals. Just because I love those planes - and from any and all sides. I'd really love to fly an Australian Boomerrang in a scenario against Zekes to be honest.
But an open arena with all of Aces High aircraft enabled along with the many late war uber planes would suck in my opinion.
I've always enjoyed bringing up ALL the uber planes that were ready for action in April 1945 whenever someone starts slobbering for the Ta-152 or spouting off about how much of an uber fighter the D9 was (in thier opinion). Most of the time folks toss out these plane ID's like trump cards. I enjoy trying to go one better or at a minimum I at least bring the conversation back to reality and back down from 'worshiping the almighty Teutonic stallion' that many do, as if these planes were the embodiment of Thors hammer.
I actually think the D9 and TA-152 are beautiful aircraft. I'd love to fly one in a sim. Same with the ME262. Me-163? I'm not too eager to blow up unexpectedly 50% of the time.
In the end. It will ALWAYS boil down to the pilot of the aircraft.
Always.

--Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 11-16-1999).]

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #100 on:** November 16, 1999, 04:10:00 PM »

Referring back to an earlier portion of this conversation, here are the "conversion" dates regarding when the various 8th AF Fighter Groups converted over to Mustangs:

354th FG - 1 Dec 43 -51B (1st -51 group in the ETO, however technically part of the 9th AF)

357th FG - 11 Feb 44 -51B (1st 8th AF -51 group)

4th FG - 25 Feb 44 -51B

355th FG - 9 Mar 44 -51B

352nd FG - 8 Apr 44 -51B

339th FG - 30 Apr 44 -51D (only flew -51's)

359th FG - 5 May 44 -51B

361st FG - 12 May 44 -51B

55th FG - 19 Jul 44 -51D

20th FG - 20 Jul 44 -51B

364th FG - 28 Jul 44 -51D

479th FG - 13 Sep 44 -51D

353rd FG - 2 Oct 44 -51D

356th FG - 20 Nov 44 -51D

78th FG - 29 Dec 44 -51D

56th FG - Didn't

As you can see... as of April 29th, 1944 only 5 Eighth AF groups were equipped with P-51s. The idea that the Luftwaffe was decimated by the overwhelming numbers during early 1944 (when they had some of their heaviest losses) is completely and utterly untrue.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

funked · « **Reply #101 on:** November 16, 1999, 05:09:00 PM »

That theory only holds if you assume only 8th AF FG's with P-51's were shooting down Luftwaffe fighters.

Do you see a flaw there?

I'm sure the P-51's did great, but to say the Luftwaffe was not vastly outnumbered over Europe during all of 1944 and 1945 is just plain silly, not to mention false.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-16-1999).]

Nath-BDP · « **Reply #102 on:** November 16, 1999, 05:21:00 PM »

But ya GOTTA give Walther Dhal credit for shooting down __36__ four engined bombers.

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1./Jagdgeschwader 51 "Mölders"

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #103 on:** November 16, 1999, 08:05:00 PM »

Yoooo-hooooo... Fuuuuunkkked....
I SPECIFICALLY said "early 1944"... and that's when many of the veterans were still alive.

In March & April (when, per the earlier quote, "German pilot losses exceeded total combat losses for the previous two years") the Luftwaffe was not outnumbered. Perhaps their strength was approximately equaled, but the real difference is the the US had long range escorts that had far better performance than the Luftwaffe aircraft at 20K+ (which, unlike AH & WB, is where "shit" happened in the Western ETO).

In short, the point I'm making is that a particular portion of the 8th AF (the early "converters" to 51s) are exactly what, in large part, robbed the Luftwaffe of many of its Experten... and that this happened when the Luftwaffe wasn't at a substantial numerical disadvantage (such as was the case in later months).

Furthermore, the vast majority of P-51s went to the 8th AF during this period of time (hence, the 4th FG being the first FG to escort buffs over Berlin).

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 11-16-1999).]

juzz · « **Reply #104 on:** November 16, 1999, 08:40:00 PM »

Tell me - if the Me163 blows up unexpectedly 50% of the time, how could several (test) pilots survive flying the thing from 1941 to 1945 then?

Author Topic: the not so studly Mustang (Read 3978 times)

funked

funked

funked

Nath-BDP