Dueling vs MA fighting

[grizz441]

There is almost no relationship between duelling and MA fighting except in regard to the most fundamental aspects of performing ACMs in general.

When duelling there are rules and restrictions that limit choice and freedom of action from the hanger to the merge. So, initiative tends to remain rather balanced and the longer the fight, the more restricted your options become as E states degrade, it is a game of move and counter-move. Duels are largely determined by the proper selection of those moves and counter-moves and their efficient execution relative to your opponent. Outside of that finite realm there are relatively few decisions to be made based upon almost perfect information until the final outcome. It's a fairly straightforward process.

MA fighting, on the other-hand, is an endless stream of open ended decisions that must constantly be made and acted upon. Unlike in duels, the conditions are both  infinitely varied and dynamically changing with both known and unknown mitigating variables. The initiative swings wildly back and forth between yourself and your opponent(s) and unlike duelling your decisions are intrinsically based upon only partial and imperfect information. This chaotic environment produces a plethora of decisions that you must make throughout with subsequent results that are unique to ones' own mental disposition, approach to the game and relative plane performance considerations. No two people will enter a fray and perform the exact same maneuvers, make the same decisions and actions or think of the fight in the same way.

In summary, the primary focus of duels leans toward the physical stick-work of flying itself, wheras MA fighting's focus is primarily on mental acuity and decision making.

True on all accounts.  I'd argue though that a pilot who has the physical stick-work of flying itself AND the SA it takes to perform in the MA is incredibly more deadly than someone who just has good SA and never fights from disadvantage.

[Zazen13]

True on all accounts.  I'd argue though that a pilot who has the physical stick-work of flying itself AND the SA it takes to perform in the MA is incredibly more deadly than someone who just has good SA and never fights from disadvantage.

Yup, as I said the application of fundamental ACM's themselves translates well across both mediums. But, on the other end of the spectrum, if you are a master of working complex engagements, endowed with great SA and decision making abilities, you should only very rarely find yourself at a disadvantage you cannot extract yourself from.

As a personal anecdotal example; if I find myself in a situation where I am forced to try to outfly someone in a SpitXVI with my Typhoon at a disadvantage, I must have seriously borked up at least one decision to get there. Knowledge of ACM's may bail me out, but the bad decision that got me there should be fatal if there is any justice and the SpitXVI isn't completely clueless.

[dedalos]

Yup, as I said the application of fundamental ACM's themselves translates well across both mediums. But, on the other end of the spectrum, if you are a master of working complex engagements, endowed with great SA and decision making abilities, you should only very rarely find yourself at a disadvantage you cannot extract yourself from.

As a personal anecdotal example; if I find myself in a situation where I am forced to try to outfly someone in a SpitXVI with my Typhoon at a disadvantage, I must have seriously borked up at least one decision to get there. Knowledge of ACM's may bail me out, but the bad decision that got me there should be fatal if there is any justice and the SpitXVI isn't completely clueless.

Translation, I fly high, I fly fast, I hit and if you see me I run 

[BiPoLaR]

Translation, I fly high, I fly fast, I hit and if you see me I run 

sounds like me 

[dedalos]

sounds like me 

I said fly high, not fling being high 

[Stiglr]

Yup, as I said the application of fundamental ACM's themselves translates well across both mediums. But, on the other end of the spectrum, if you are a master of working complex engagements, endowed with great SA and decision making abilities, you should only very rarely find yourself at a disadvantage you cannot extract yourself from.

As a personal anecdotal example; if I find myself in a situation where I am forced to try to outfly someone in a SpitXVI with my Typhoon at a disadvantage, I must have seriously borked up at least one decision to get there. Knowledge of ACM's may bail me out, but the bad decision that got me there should be fatal if there is any justice and the SpitXVI isn't completely clueless.

...and of course, bringing up the very valid question, "Why the HELL would a Typhoon and a Spit be fighting each other?

The hoary old arena mentality is a far bigger problem then whether people want to approach combat from a mission or a dueling POV.

[grizz441]

...and of course, bringing up the very valid question, "Why the HELL would a Typhoon and a Spit be fighting each other?

The hoary old arena mentality is a far bigger problem then whether people want to approach combat from a mission or a dueling POV.

Anything is possible if you set up the proper angles and have a plan of attack.
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20305833/jet.ahf

[Masherbrum]

...and of course, bringing up the very valid question, "Why the HELL would a Typhoon and a Spit be fighting each other?

The hoary old arena mentality is a far bigger problem then whether people want to approach combat from a mission or a dueling POV.

Depends on how well each understands the limitations of the plane he is in.   

[Stiglr]

grizz441 wrote:

Anything is possible if you set up the proper angles and have a plan of attack.

Well, even THAT's not completely true.

If you're used to roaring around at 100% throttle all sortie   then it becomes much harder to catch any aircraft, because you're both at or near maximum level speed during transit and the times when contact is most likely. Even an energy-buildig dive won't get you close enough to get a good bounce in before you're seen, unless the aircraft involved have a large disparity in speed. This, of course, applies when first contact is made from a tail chase aspect.

A lot of surprise is lost this way in games where there's no aircraft management to speak of. Fact was, planes that got bounced tended to be at a cruise speed, fat and happy and leaned out... throttled back... possibly with drop tanks... in a formation and thinking the other guy is watching out...

With HO or crossing engagements, though, what you say is much more true.

[Masherbrum]

Well, even THAT's not completely true.

If you're used to roaring around at 100% throttle all sortie   then it becomes much harder to catch any aircraft, because you're both at or near maximum level speed. Even a dive won't get you close enough before you're seen, unless the aircraft involved have a large disparity in speed. This, of course, applies when first contact is made from a tail chase aspect.

A lot of surprise is lost this way in games where there's no aircraft management to speak of. Fact was, planes that got bounced tended to be at a cruise speed, fat and happy and leaned out... throttled back... possibly with drop tanks... in a formation and thinking the other guy is watching out...

With HO or crossing engagements, though, what you say is much more true.

Last night I was at A170 and it was being attacked by a CV.   I rolled a Ki-61 off of the base with 50% fuel.   Entering the fray at 2k, I was quickly bounced by a Zeke.   He overshot easily because he wasn't patient, he pulled a turn, I was already anticipating him turning towards his puff ack.   He was in the tower quickly there after.   

If I'm in an La7 when encountering Cons, I'll start with La7's first, because they...TO ME...are the most potential threat to wingmen.   I'm confident in both the Ki-61 and La7, I know both planes limitations and any other piece of data that can appear on a graph.   

Most of the time, the experienced stick in a ride in say a Spit 1, will probably best an "Intermediate or Beginner" level stick in a Spit 16.   Why?   The experienced stick will force the Spit 16 to fight "his fight" and throw the Spit 16 off of "what he should be doing".   

[Stiglr]

More utter stupidity in matchups....

Spit I vs. Spit XVI??? 1940 planes vs. 1944 planes?

Zeke vs. Ki-61?

Any of you know any classic historic matchups?

Or is it always "ueberest plane available today vs. 2nd ueberest plane available today"? Or is it only "fight that never took place"?

Arenas are STUPID.

[Masherbrum]

More utter stupidity in matchups....

Spit I vs. Spit XVI??? 1940 planes vs. 1944 planes?

Zeke vs. Ki-61?

Any of you know any classic historic matchups?

Or is it always "ueberest plane available today vs. 2nd ueberest plane available today"? Or is it only "fight that never took place"?

Arenas are STUPID.

The Zeke-5 is a Mid War ride as is the Ki-61.   You're still missing the point.   

[Steve]

I are STUPID.

fixed

[Badboy]

There is almost no relationship between duelling and MA fighting except in regard to the most fundamental aspects of performing ACMs in general.

Hi Zazen,

I disagree, I think there is a strong relationship between dueling and MA fighting, unless the way you fly excludes the possibility that you will ever find yourself in a one versus one Co-E engagement and I'm sure there are many who actively seek fights with that potential. True, there is often, some disparity in initial conditions that create fights very different from the usual dueling setup, where one pilot is at some disadvantage that wouldn't exist in the more common dueling arrangements. However, there are techniques that good pilots use to minimize those disadvantages, ways to equalize energy and reset the fight for a neutral merge, at which point the skills required to win are the same skills that determine the outcome of a duel. A strong and direct relationship.

Anyone who lacks the skill set required to do well in a duel, is going to be at a disadvantage in any fight that ends up anywhere near a neutral one versus one, unless they choose to end every engagement when it reaches that point. The ability to duel well, gives the ability to finish what you start.     

In fact I would say that probably the best start anyone could have, after learning the basics, would be to duel their hearts out until they are confident in their ability to do well in a one versus one similar aircraft engagement that begins with a neutral Co-E merge. Then expand their skills by beginning the fight with various forms and degree of disadvantage, before learning to capitalize on the various types of advantage. All of which can be learned most effectively with a variety of dueling setups using different initial conditions, numbers, and/or dissimilar aircraft. Again, a strong and direct relationship.

Players who avoid the school of hard knocks, and only learn how to win from a position of advantage are often unable to continue a fight once that advantage has been lost. It is all to easy for such players to become polarized into one style of fighting as a direct result of their inability to acquire skills that can be most efficiently learned through a variety of dueling setups. Dueling is simply the most efficient way to gain experience of a wide variety of combat situations in the shortest possible time, and I believe that the skills acquired during a slightly broader conception of dueling than may be the norm is of direct benefit and strongly related to what happens in the MA. Just as the check rides that real fighter pilots use during training are of benefit when they enter active duty.

Badboy

[Bronk]

fixed

Steve, you are slipping my good man.

I are TeH STUPID.

Now.. it is fixed.