Third Tri-Annual Dueling Braket & Results

[grizz441]

I have to agree with bat...by the third fight I had an Idea of how he was playing the game  (teasing me) and I adjusted....(any more than three I would have been kickin him  yeah right)...now sure a player like bat,grizz,bruv,,blah de blah can change their plan at will so for the lower tier fights this wouldn't be a problem but when you are getting to the finals these are guys who can turn fights with a snap of the fingers. The competitors could make a plane choice that offers a fighting chance not some big bore tear a new sphinc.... type and allow for a decent fight...after the random draw that is...competitor choice holds bearing on type of fight.

Well if the purpose of the tournament is to give everyone a good chance then it succeeds.  If the purpose of the tourney is to decide who the better pilot is on any given sunday, it fails epically. My 2c.

[SPKmes]

Well then how about this....The random draw plane is for deciding who picks first....the winner of the random draw plane makes first choice, this will now be the first fight of the match up. The loser from this point then gets to choose the next plane...

[mechanic]

Yeah that's not the point.  Winning the second round isn't too tough because it's supposed to be your plane of mastery.  The 3rd round is the issue here, having to fight against your opponents best ride to decide who goes.  

If you are much better than someone you will dominate them regardless.  However, if two pilots are somewhat in the same ball park in skill, it's a complete crapshoot.  It's like playing 2 innings of baseball and deciding a winner.  It makes no sense from my perspective, and you are the only active 'dueler' that I see not in agreement.

it's not two rounds, it's three, quite clearly. One random draw and a maximum of one choice each. If the random draw aspect of the first round is such an issue, it would be wise for participants to be well versed in the entire planeset. Wide ranging experience should be rewarded. The capability to fly any plane is more a true test of ACM knowledge than anything else.

Well if the purpose of the tournament is to give everyone a good chance then it succeeds.  If the purpose of the tourney is to decide who the better pilot is on any given sunday, it fails epically. My 2c.

I totaly disagree. More rounds gives more chance for the losing party to succeed. On the 'given sunday' that you were last in the bracket, JB11 was the better pilot. Are you disputing that fact, and that if you had had seven fights you would have dominated him utterly? You're suggesting, using that final as an example, that you were the better pilot on that given sunday but due to only having three rounds the lesser pilot prevailed? I lost the first bracket final to moot, not because of the round numbers or random plane choice, but because on the day he flew better and took it 2-1. So I am not biased on this matter as far as I can see. I truly belive that three rounds is enough for the purpose of this tourneyment.
 If you are the better pilot on the day you should win no matter if three or seven or twentyone fights are fought.

[JunkyII]

I beat TC (in the second tourney only because I won the first round(doras, one of my better rides) then lost the second against his main ride in the second,hog....then I picked the KI for the final which at the time I was flying it  pretty much every sortie for 2 months straight. More rounds would have made it better IMO especially if you couldnt pick the same plane multiple times in the fight.......TC is a better stick then me overall even with a hurt shoulder, i just got lucky to win round 1.

[Qrsu]

Without reading too much of the debate (sorry) I think I'm in agreement for a few more rounds in the duel: 3 out of 5, or, 4 out of 7. Not complaining really but I find it takes one-two rounds to just get over the nerves of dueling someone new and to hit your stride. I've found the extra duels after the official ones to be a bit closer and more enjoyable.

I'm also not a fan of fighting at 10k... but that's another story  .

[grizz441]

I totaly disagree. More rounds gives more chance for the losing party to succeed. On the 'given sunday' that you were last in the bracket, JB11 was the better pilot. Are you disputing that fact, and that if you had had seven fights you would have dominated him utterly? You're suggesting, using that final as an example, that you were the better pilot on that given sunday but due to only having three rounds the lesser pilot prevailed? I lost the first bracket final to moot, not because of the round numbers or random plane choice, but because on the day he flew better and took it 2-1. So I am not biased on this matter as far as I can see. I truly belive that three rounds is enough for the purpose of this tourneyment.
 If you are the better pilot on the day you should win no matter if three or seven or twentyone fights are fought.

Actually I wasn't talking about myself nor my fights with jb11, I can't even remember them hardly.  I blinked and it was over.  But if we want to use my fights as an example, how about my fights vs you?  You lost the 1st because you stalled out the spit14 at gun solution and I beat you in the 3rd fight after making a lucky shot under my nose to put you on fire on the 3rd merge.  After that we did 4 or 5 additional fights at the side base and you won every single one.  So I beat you 2 out of 3 in the tourney, you beat me 5 out of 5 at the side base, and I was the better pilot that day?    oO

[mechanic]

Well it goes to prove that when it was important, you won that set of three duels. Me stalling the spit14 was my mistake, one that should be punished. I then won my choice of plane, think it was the G6. You then won your choice of plane, 190D9? You say it was a lucky under the nose shot, I say it was a convincing victory. Rather be lucky than good any day. So we were equally matched in the chosen rides and you flew better in the random draw. You were the better pilot overall in the three fights we had for the bracket, no doubt about it.

I'm just stating my opinion, it seems one that is vastly outnumbered as far as opinions go right now. 
I'm not really bothered if the rounds are increased, I just believe that three rounds is enough. But whatever happens, the bracket is alot of fun. 

[grizz441]

Well it goes to prove that when it was important, you won that set of three duels. Me stalling the spit14 was my mistake, one that should be punished. I then won my choice of plane, think it was the G6. You then won your choice of plane, 190D9? You say it was a lucky under the nose shot, I say it was a convincing victory. Rather be lucky than good any day. So we were equally matched in the chosen rides and you flew better in the random draw. You were the better pilot overall in the three fights we had for the bracket, no doubt about it.

I'm just stating my opinion, it seems one that is vastly outnumbered as far as opinions go right now. 
I'm not really bothered if the rounds are increased, I just believe that three rounds is enough. But whatever happens, the bracket is alot of fun. 

No, you were flying much better than me, I got lucky.  And I don't say that to be humble, I flat out got lucky, and luckiness is valuable in a 3 round match.  Luck only takes you so far as the number of rounds increase! 

[mechanic]

Maybe that is where the debate springs from, I think luck should be a deciding factor in the fights along with knowledge and on-the-day performance. The evolution of humans was certainly just dumb luck, I like luck

[grizz441]

Maybe that is where the debate springs from, I think luck should be a deciding factor in the fights along with knowledge and on-the-day performance. The evolution of humans was certainly just dumb luck, I like luck

I think skill should be the governing factor in deciding who moves on, not luck.  Skill overcomes luck as n increases.  

[boomerlu]

Yeah, the more rounds fought, the more likely it is that the better player wins the series. Simple math.

Say the chances are 60-40. Then the chance the worse player wins is 40% for a one duel series. If it's two duels, then it's (40%)^2 = 16%. Etc etc...

Vastly oversimplified, but the idea should be pretty obvious.

[BaldEagl]

I've been reading this debate today with interest.

I've so far resisted suggestions to expand beyond best of three.  As Grizz pointed out, if it's there to give everyone a chance then it's worked well and, to some degree it is.  For that reason I don't think a change to the elimination rounds will happen.  If you lose two in a row well, you might have just had a bad day, been nervous, not gotten a plane you know, etc.  If you lose three or four in a row then you were probably thouroughly dominated and most likely wouldn't return to try again.  Two losses can leave you wanting more and anticipating your next chance, three or more might leave you feeling like you had no right participating.

That said I'm not nessesarily opposed to increasing the number of duels from the quarterfinals forward but, I suspect that adding more duels will result in the same (best) players advancing tourney after tourney.  That also limits the fun for others and the anticipation of what might happen.

If I do increase the number I don't think it would be a major change.  A small increase in the later rounds is a possibility but I'd like to hear from more participants before making any changes.

[TnDep]

I see both your points Bat and Grizz.  In my opinion it's a 1v1 dueling braket and the purpose of this tournament is to bring out the best fighters in the game in my opinion, why else would you host such a tournament if you didn't want the best at the end.  I'm not even close to being able to compete with the best as of yet  but I would rather watch their fights in film then myself being in the final knowing I was going to lose.  I love watching film to see other's techniques, I do it hours at a time as it is. 

So the question at hand is Whats the purpose of this tournament?

Is it about skill or luck?
Do we want the best fighters at the end?


My vote goes with skill and yes 


BaldEagl
My vote is to increase the amount of duels from the quarters forward.  I'd also like to see the duels up until then increased to 5 but I understand everyone's point and will play regardless what changes are made.  One thing I would like to see everyone poll as well is

Do you think any particular plane should be used for more then 1 rd.

My vote is that a plane can only be used once in the course of the duels. 

[grizz441]

Another point I'd like to make regarding adding more fights...

In the 2nd tourney I had a lot of scheduling problems.  I ended up waiting quite some time in some cases.  Normally I wouldn't mind, but since the fights really do only last 10 minutes, it seemed very tedious to schedule through PMs, organize, wait and wait, and then only fight for 10 minutes.  When two pilots meet at a certain time at the canyon in the dueling arena, it'd be nice to get a few more meaningful fights in than just 2 and done.

[Tordon22]

Any given sunday? I made it past the first round once lol.

I agree w/ the # of fights increasing as the rounds progress though. Even if just to best out of 5. If there were longer series, would anyone be opposed to a rule on repeating a plane? It would get a bit tricky when you can just go from g-2 to g-6 (or any other plane with numerous sub types) but I feel like some series would end up like this if given a chance:

XXX-Random draw plane
Zap- 38j
XXX- Spit
Zap- 38j
XXX-Spit

And I'm personally a fan of flying planes outside your 'comfort zone' in the tourney.