"Uber" planes revisited

[Westy]

 In Europe Nashwan? None. But WWII wasn't just Europe. The P-47N saw action of Japan flying out of Iwo Shima. The spring of 1945 was NOT the end of the war for quite a bit of the world. It was in Europe but considering there were hostilites right up til September of 1945 in the Pacific I'd say a plane introduced by the USAAF in spring of 1945 is just 'latter war' period, not 'end war.
 
   -Westy

[Hristo]

Do not forget 262. It should be regular plane. Some 1400 built, heavy action from summer 1944, to the bitter end.

But you know that already  

[Nashwan]

I never suggested the war was only in Europe. What I was trying to say is it's a bit unfair to keep comparing every RAF plane introduced after the summer of 42 with planes introduced in 45. The Spit XIV was shooting down enemy aircraft long before the protype of the P47N first flew. How does that make them contemporaries?

[Vermillion]

Excuse me Sir? I do believe you just shot yourself in the foot.   <points to bloody hole in Nashwans combat boot>

 

The Spit XIV was shooting down enemy aircraft long before the protype of the P47N first flew. How does that make them contemporaries?

Hmmm... could be wrong, but I would like to see some facts backing up a statement like that.

Seems to me I remember that the Spit XIV wasn't deployed outside of England till the Fall of 1944. And no shooting down V1's Buzzbombs, dont' count as shooting down "aircraft".

So when was the P-47N prototype flown?

Nashwan, you do realize that the P-47N model is simply the P-47M model with extra fuel tanks inside the wings dont' you, for more range in the Pacific?  And the P-47M served in Europe alongside the Spit XIV.

So fine, give us a P-47M instead of the N, will that be acceptable?

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-18-2000).]

[Nashwan]

<Puts bandage on foot and limps onward>
The Spit XIV entered squadron service in Jan 44. It wasn't "deployed" outside England until Jun44 (unless some squadrons moved to Wales, Scotland or N. Ireland   ) because the Germans had all the good airfields on the continent, iirc  
In Jun 44 3 squadrons operated from temporary airstrips in Normandy. Sounds like the Summer, not the Fall. In the period betweeen Jan and Jun I think they would have made many operational sweeps over Europe. The fact that the Luft chose to hide from the RAF most of the time is hardly the Spits fault (ok. perhaps it is   ) but they were certainly in use. Luftwaffles seem to think that 1 prototype seeing an enemy plane and running from it is "operational", so I don't see why shooting down 300 unmanned enemy aircraft isn't.
The P47N had an all new wing (of 22sqft more area), strengthened landing gear, a new variant engine and many other changes. it had an empty weight 1000lbs greater than the D. Sounds like more than minor changes to me. Incidentally, they fitted an new wing to the Spit XIV. It was called the Spiteful, would that be acceptable to you?
The P47N prototype flew on 22 July 44, after Spits had started to fly from bases in Normandy, and long after they had entered service. I don't have a date when the first kill by a Spit XIV happend, but I am fairly sure it was before the 22 July 1944.
<Takes bandage off foot, finds no injury and puts boot back on>

[fd ski]

spit 14's first kill was a Ju88 and i believe it was in March 1944. Going from memory here  


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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

[jmccaul]

Of course the americans got an extra 5 months to get planes into service as such end of war planes for the US would be post war planes for britain and germany.

P.S. i though there were 950 spit 14's

[Daff]

The P-47M's were delivered to the 56th FG either in late december '44 or early January '45. (Depending on which source you use).
 They shot down their share of LW planes (The few that were left), including a number of jets.
 In all areas, apart from range, the P-47M is the better performer.
With the increased fuelload on the P-47N, climb (with fuel fuelload) was down to the same level as the P-47Cs/early D's.
The only P-47 book I got here at work is somewhat vague about when the P-47N went into service, but somewhere between January and March '45, (I can find out more exact when I get back from work), but it appears that the 4-5 P47-N equipped FG's saw less action in the following 7 months than the 56th FG's P-47M's saw in the last four months of the war in Europe.

Daff



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CO, 56th Fighter Group

[Vermillion]

I said M and N, had the only difference in integral wingtanks.

Not the D and N

A whole month out of a 5+ year war? wow I guess that means you only got grazed   (points to crease in combat boot)

LOL!! And I don't think I could hardly be classified as a Luftwobble   Psuedo - Pony Mafia maybe, Luftwobble not even close. Points to Hristo and the never ending 262 comment  <----- Now THATS a Luftwobble  

And of course us Americans get 5 more months. "in World War II" means just that, not just "WWII in Europe"   Fair? Nope, but history rarely is.



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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Nashwan]

The P47M was built in very limited numbers. 130 iirc.
jmccaul, the war ended on the same day for Britain and America. Britain was involved in the war against Japan as well. Spit XIVs were even sent out to the far east, and flew off a carrier to bases in Malaya, but the war ended before they got into action.
 

[Nashwan]

Sorry verm, I didn't make myself clear. Here is a quote from the this site: http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic8.html

The modifications to the existing YP-47M were considerable. Aside from simply installing the wing inserts and fuel tanks, the flaps were required to be redesigned, and the ailerons had to be modified to fit with the new squared-off wing tips. Due to spacing the wings out from the wing root, the landing gear track increased by more than 3 feet. The overall wing span had increased to just over 42 ft 6 inches. The empty weight of the fighter had gone up by nearly half a ton to 12,950 lbs.
I have similar things in my books but cut and paste is easier than typing. The difference in the wings was between the D/M and the N. The M was basically a D with a better engine and some weight stipped out. They had the same wing.
A month? If the Spit had it's first kill in March, and the P47 flew at the end of July, doesn't that make it around 4 months?
Like I said, Britain had that extra 5 months of war as well. WE were in the war from begining to end  


[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 05-18-2000).]

[Nath-BDP]

Sure the Royal Navy was in the PAC, with 4 carriers which didn't do much, and 85% of their aircraft on these carriers were American, go figure.
 
The 47M was only designed as a V-1 interceptor, nothing more, nothing less, it was a 'sprint' version that was designed to operate at medium altitude, whereupon it was aquire its target then iniate a dive untill it was close to its target, then slow down with the aid of air brakes and then rape with its 8 .50 cals.  Naswan was right.. 130 47Ms were built, 1,816 47Ns.  I would choose the M version over the N, for severel reasons including that it was much lighter than the N, and faster.

But... the question now is, should we get the bubble canopy version of the XIV or the malcom hood?  The first spitfire equipped with a bubble canopy first flew in mid 43 mounted on a Mk XIII airframe, however, the first operational use of the bubble canopy on spitfires was in early 44.  The first sqaudron to equip with the XIV was No. 610, which became operational with the new fighter in May of 44.  Also, the first aircraft to shoot down an Me262 was a spit F.Mk XIV in October of 44.

[Vermillion]

Nashwan, I hope by this point that you have figured out that I'm having fun with you  

My only point is that late model P-47's, M or N take your pick, were active in the war  in large numbers , and meet the same "inclusion" requirements that we normally speak of, just like the Spit XIV. Yes there were only 130 M's, but thats because they had already started mass production of the N's (over 1,500 built). Both served in combat with distinction.

Its only my opinon (and its an opinon that we probably won't ever get to test) but I figure that a N load with the same number of gallons of gas will handle very similarly to the M. But again thats just my opinon.

Daff, not sure about amount of action of M equipped groups versus N equipped groups but here is a few things I found quickly in AHT about P-47Ns in action.

Apr. '45:  The new 318th FG gets new P-47N's, and moves to Ie SHima, three miles off the coast of Okinawa, and only 325 miles from Japan

May 25, '45: The 318th FG destroys 34 enemy aircraft over Kyushu, Japan out of a 165 plane attack.

Jun 10 '45: By the end of the day the 318th FG total goes to 108 victories.

Jun 13, '45: Japanese defensive action is intensive over Kyushu. During the previous week, the P-47N's of the 318th FG are intercepted by 244 aircraft of which the Thunderbolts down 48 for a loss of three of their own.

Aug 8th '45: American Bombers attack Yawata, Japan, the most important industrial city left after the destruction at Hiroshima. On hundred and fifty one (151) P-47Ns of the 301st FW, 413th and 507th Groups fly their only escort mission over Japan.  There are over 400 Bombers.  60 Enemy fighters appear, and in a fierce air battle 13 enemy planes are downed for the loss of five P47N's.

Aug 13th '45:  P-47N's of the 507th FG fly a a fighter sweep to Korea and meet 50 aircraft. They down 20 of these and destroy two on the ground, losing one P-47N.

These are just a couple of the encounters listed, but I just wanted to point out that the P-47N's didn't just fly around and never see the enemy.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:

Personally I expect the "Super Uber's" to be Jets, and aircraft that never really saw combat. P-51H's, Bearcats, TigerCats, Ta-152H1's, La9's, Yak-3P's, FG-2 SuperCorsairs, and such as that.

Ta152H1 DID saw REAL Combat. Me262 DID SAW REAL COMBAT. Fw190D12 DID SAW REAL COMBAT  
Arado Ar234 too, and B29, too.

Careful,verm...If you put "uber" on no-fight planes in WWII then you'll have to put those "kitties" in the 0 point hangar   .

Uber:Plane that outclasses any planes in the current planeset, counting in the planeset the SpitXIV and Fw190D9. Thats it, IMHO.

P47N should be in uber planeset. P47D on normal planeset. No matter it saw combat or not, man. P47N WOULD unbalance seriously the arena. So it is Uber. Same with Spit XXI, P51H, Ta152H, (Regretfully) Me262, He162, Go229, P80, F8F, F7F, Fury...

I agree,tho, on Tempest. It can be in the current planeset without problem...but then what is the tiffie for????

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Ram, out

Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-18-2000).]

[Nashwan]

Yes Verm, I'm just having fun too. I don't actually object to the P47N, it might be a lot later than the Spit but I would back the Spit in a fight any day.  
The info I have is that the N actually handled better than the M. It was heavier but it had a larger wing, better aileron design etc.
Nath, the RN had more than 4 carriers in the Pacific, though there were probably only 4 on station at any one time. To say they didn't do much is a bit silly. They didn't take the losses the American carriers did in 45 because the RN fitted there carriers with armoured flight decks, so those Kamikaze (sp?) which got through didn't do much damage.