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[air_reaper]

 Not to add to the flame or whining but folks the nik will with 100% fuel and a 150mph take off speed will do consecutive loops.
 By no means do I feel this is correct. The aerobatic champions we have today with power and lift a WWII fighter has never seen wont do this.
 Yes I can post a film doing this in the MA it is very easy to do.

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 http://www.cornhusker.net/~predator

[Jekyll]

Oh dear DejaVu, you've really put your foot in it this time.

You see gentle readers, Dejavu has obviously had a look at my stats to come up with the above little gem.  He finishes by saying 'Typical LW'.

So DejaVu, be honest.  You looked at my stats.  Which aircraft did I fly the most in 1.04 and 1.05?  Hmmm?  How about, second most common ride?  You'll find LW iron well down the list  

Typical AKDejaVu.  When he has nothing coherent to say, he doesn't attack the message, he attacks the messenger.

Deja, I've often flown the N1K in the training arena, usually when giving a lesson or taking part in FFA. It helps to be flying an aircraft with the turn capability of a Spitfire, the guns of a CHog and the acceleration of a 109  

But I won't fly it in the MA.  I would NEVER want anyone in the MA to think me a N1K flyer!

So Deja, now that you've proven yourself an idiot, you want to keep going?  

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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 02-11-2001).]

[funked]

Actually Reaper, the aerobatic champs have nowhere near the kind of power that the N1K2 or most of the AH fighters possess.  Furthermore a 150 mph takeoff speed is ridiculously high for a WW2 fighter or a modern acro bird.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-11-2001).]

[Jekyll]

 

Originally posted by funked:
Actually Reaper, the aerobatic champs have nowhere near the kind of power that the N1K2 or most of the AH fighters possess.  Furthermore a 150 mph takeoff speed is ridiculously high for a WW2 fighter or a modern acro bird.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-11-2001).]

Nor do the modern acro birds have anything near the weight of a WW2 fighter, right funked?

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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[StSanta]

Hey dudes  .

I've taken the f6f and N1k up, built a little speed and then done two consecutive negative g loops, without hitting the ground, starting at 100agl.

How 'bout that?  

Tried it in G10 and A5, dinnae work, but might be me.

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"

[Toad]

Santa are you talking outside loop here? Pushing the stick forward from 100 AGL and looping?

[C_R_Caldwell]

As 4 Wide's claim that Jap pilot's overclaimed by a factor of 4, that is an over-generalisation.The fact is, that because 4 most of WW2 kill credits were shared by the unit & not by individuals, it has become very complicated 4 historians 2 divine various IJNAF & IJAAF aces' scores.However, there has been a lot of work done in the last 10 yrs, and a much clearer picture has emerged.Some scores have been significantly diminished, by up to 4 times, whilst others have barely changed.One thing is certain - Sakai's score hasn't been revised down to 21 or 22 kills.Most historians still believe his score stands closer to 60.There r several excellent books which cover WW2 Jap aces & a great one to start with which is easy 2 buy and is a great primer on the subject is Osprey's Aircraft Of The Aces - #22 "Imperial  Japanese Navy Aces 1937-45" & #13 "Imperial Japanese Army Airforce Aces 1937-45". I'm sure u have probably already heard of them, as most simmers seem to own at least 1 or 2 of the series.

As 4 the N1K2-J's handling, it does seem overly uber, but as I've never flown one, I can't make a definitive comment on the subject (unlike some of the "experts" on this thread).The auto combat-flap system which used a manometer 2 measure speed & AoA was simple, yet an engineering marvel at the time.It does appear that all things being equal (which they never are), an N1K2-J could run rings around any late-war Allied fighter.OTH, whether it could do it 2 the extent that Shiden-Kai's do in AH is highly debatable.Since the George's legion of mechanical probs aren't modelled in AH, that also adds 2 the AH N1K's credit ledger.

My suggestion is this.Why doesn't AH model the N1K1-J? I'm talking about the early model N1K1-J with the outboard Type 99's in pods as well as fuselage mounted 7.92mm light MG's,(the vast majority of N1K1-J's were the"'stock' model) not later models which had the same armament as the N1K2-J.By all accounts, whilst the 2-J Shiden-Kai was superior in vert & horizontal turns in comparison 2 Allied a/c like the F6F & F4U, the 1-J Shiden has been constantly described as being roughly equal 2 the F6F.The 1-J Shiden's outboard podded cannons added considerably 2 drag, making it even slower than the 2-J Shiden-Kai, as well as affecting its maneuvrability.The 1-J still had the auto combat-flaps, but the extra drag experienced by the Shiden as has been mentioned had an eefect on performance and handling.

Having the N1K1-J modelled would allow the N1K2-J 2 be perked.Does that sound like a bad idea? I dunno, I'm just suggesting it. I am a fan of being as realistic as possible in a sim, but we must remeber that this is a GAME, and an expensive one at that (relatively speaking).HTC has 2 try 2 be as realistic as possible whilst balancing game-play issues.

Personally, I'm sick of seeing N1K2-J's and F4U-1C's crowding the arena.They are easily the most flown a/c in AH, probably followed by the Spit.Those of us who'd like 2 fly other a/c are often frustrated by the superiority of these 2 a/c, and many finally succomb and start flying these machines themselves, feeling they have no choice.Sure, there r guys like Nath-BDP and a small number of others who can make a/c like the 190A-8 dance, but the average Joe can't compete on equal terms with Chog & N1K flying players.AH should now be called "Chogs & N1Kis High".

I don't have a huge problem with the F4U's FM, but its quad Hispanos r just way too deadly and afford the user an incredible advantage.I'm not saying that they aren't modelled realistically.I'm asking why such a deadly fighter which was built in such tiny numbers & served with such few units is readily available in AH.I keep being told, "Aw, its HiTech's favourite fighter - it's goin nowhere ;-) ", by those who love the Chog. I don't know if that's true or not. I'm not going 2 accuse HT of anything because I've never read or heard anything by him on the subject.One thing I do know is this: If HT *has* included the Chog because its his personal favourite (that's a big IF) he should remember that it's the paying customers who pay good money 4 the benefit of playing AH.The developers should fight their urge 2 include a/c which unbalance play because of their love of such a/c.

From a balance of play standpoint, there is simply no reason 2 include the Chog as an unperked fighter.The same can probably be said 4 the Shiden-Kai.Otherwise, the only other way to redress the balance would be 2 have an RPS in AH, which many ppl simply do not want.For that 2 happen, more early-mid war a/c would have 2 be modelled, and whether most AH players want 2 fly early war a/c is questionable.Whatever is done, something *has* to be done.What is the use of modelling so many different fighters when only 2 of them appear 2 be flown by about >40% of players (when Japanese players are on during peak Japanese playing hours, it seems as if >50% of AH players at that time are flying N1K's alone!)?

As 4 the Ki-100 being no better than the Ki-61, Wide doesn't know what he's talking about ;-) Even the J2M Raiden which has often been pilloried received glowing praise from an in-theatre US test-pilot who flew a J2M captured on the outskirts of Manila.He described it as (I'm not paraphrasing) basically being delightful to fly and the best Japanese fighter he had flown yet (the inference being he had quite some experience in flying different types).He commented on its high rate of climb.His only complaint was that the ailerons became very heavy above 300 mph.However, as the Raiden was designed as a fast climbing straight-line interceptor, it was thought 2 be less of a problem than it would be in fighters such as the Ki-84.

[This message has been edited by C_R_Caldwell (edited 02-11-2001).]

[Jekyll]

Quick quiz.  What was the first fighter ever modelled in Warbirds?  

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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

Ive flown the Niki a lot, maybe too much,as some of you have pointed out. Basically it just doesnt feel like the other planes in here when it comes to E-retention, I dont know why,I dont know how to test E-retention, but it simply feels wrong. Actually I think it resembles the FM of a Jane's WW2 Fighters Spit9. Thats prolly why I like to fly the niki when things dont go well in the 109, its very simmilar to the planes in Janes WW2 Fighters. They can climb very long without stalling/spinning, they can hover on the top of a stall-climb - long enough for a controlled stall, they just dont need very much forward speed to pull wild vertical and turn manouvers, exacltly like the niki. I liked Janes for a long time, but its very crappy roadkill FM got tired and uninteresting so I left. You all pretty much know that I hate the chog and the niki in AH, thats why guys, they just remind me too damn much of the cheap
unchallenging, no skill, roadkill of Janes FM and weapons. Im sad to say but I dont think HTC gives a damn about niki or chog being changed, and why should they? These planes prolly draw in and retain more $$$ customers (QUAKERS), due to their incredible ease of use/killing, than they piss off and push away existing customers (HARD CORE DEDICATED FLIGHT SIMMERS), whom I soppose AH was originally targeted at with a high-end FM. Face it the new QUAKERS $10,$15,$20, or $30 a month is the same as DEDICATED SIMMERS $30 to HTC.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by C_R_Caldwell:
As 4 Wide's claim that Jap pilot's overclaimed by a factor of 4, that is an over-generalisation.The fact is, that because 4 most of WW2 kill credits were shared by the unit & not by individuals, it has become very complicated 4 historians 2 divine various IJNAF & IJAAF aces' scores.However, there has been a lot of work done in the last 10 yrs, and a much clearer picture has emerged.Some scores have been significantly diminished, by up to 4 times, whilst others have barely changed.One thing is certain - Sakai's score hasn't been revised down to 21 or 22 kills.

According to at least one historian, who took the time to research the topic, Sakai's total includes 37 aircraft that were present and accounted for after Sakai said he had shot them down. The fact remains that the Japanese claimed to have shot down more than four times the losses suffered by their enemies. Typical of this is the air combat during the Nomonhan Incident in Manchuria. The Japanese claimed to have shot down or otherwise destoryed 1,260 Soviet fighters. Actual Russian losses were 207. That's an overclaiming ratio of better than 6 to 1. The Russians claimed to have dispatched 653 Japanese aircraft, with acknowledged losses being 162. This results in overclaiming by a factor of 4 to 1. The simple facts are that the Japanese had an incredibly liberal method of recognizing claims. Virtually any pilot could say he shot down an enemy and without a shred of corroborating evidence, it was accepted. Anyone with an attention span of greater duration than a gnat's fart can see that Japanese victory claims are virtually worthless as historical evidence. I should add that the Japanese Army took a severe beating at the hands of the Red Army in Manchuria.

 

Most historians still believe his score stands closer to 60.

Name one, please. I have a problem with a pilot who confused a Douglas SBD with an F4F, only to be nearly killed by the rear gunner. Worse, Sakai reported that he had be hit by a TBF. Don't get me wrong, Sakai was a truly honest man, and as fine a gentleman as ever there was. Nonetheless, I must wonder if he saw what he thought he saw. Honest men can be as overly optimistic as anyone else.

 

There r several excellent books which cover WW2 Jap aces & a great one to start with which is easy 2 buy and is a great primer on the subject is Osprey's Aircraft Of The Aces - #22 "Imperial  Japanese Navy Aces 1937-45" & #13 "Imperial Japanese Army Airforce Aces 1937-45". I'm sure u have probably already heard of them, as most simmers seem to own at least 1 or 2 of the series.

[/b]

I believe that these books were compiled by Henry Sakaida, correct? Well, even Sakaida says that Japanese victory claims "cannot be taken at face value."

 

As 4 the Ki-100 being no better than the Ki-61, Wide doesn't know what he's talking about ;-)

[/b]

Wanna bet?  
I get paid to know what I'm talking about.

 

Even the J2M Raiden which has often been pilloried received glowing praise from an in-theatre US test-pilot who flew a J2M captured on the outskirts of Manila.He described it as (I'm not paraphrasing) basically being delightful to fly and the best Japanese fighter he had flown yet (the inference being he had quite some experience in flying different types).He commented on its high rate of climb.His only complaint was that the ailerons became very heavy above 300 mph.However, as the Raiden was designed as a fast climbing straight-line interceptor, it was thought 2 be less of a problem than it would be in fighters such as the Ki-84.

Both the Ki-100 and the J2M were outstanding aircraft by the standards of late 1941. By early 1945, both were utterly obsolete when held up to such American fighters such as the P-47N, P-51H, F4U-4, F7F and F8F, all of which were coming on line or were already in combat service. Let's face facts, the Ki-100 was barely equal to a Battle of Britain era Bf 109E, much less being able to cope with the latest superlative hardware being fielded against Japan by the Allies.

My regards,

Widewing

[GRUNHERZ]

What exactly do you have against the Japanase? Be honest now....

[Jimdandy]

 

Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy:

Originally posted by Vermillion:
No RAM, if you go back and look at the film you will not see what you are claiming.

First off, the person who made the film, didn't start looping at normal minimum rotation speed like you think. They waited until around 250mph+ before they allowed the N1K2 to rotate off the runway. This is very important.

Plus they used an elevated runway (3k or 5k I can't remember), and once they were off the end of the runway, and did several loops their altitude actually dropped below that of the starting base altitude (ie if they would have started at sea level they would have crashed before completing that number of loops). Which is another point to consider.

Lets keep the facts straight and the propaganda to a minimum.

http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/nikidemo.ahf

[Verm], you guys intrigued me, so I grabbed a Niki 50% fuel offline and went for a test flight. I accelerated to 150 I think (up to you to check), I went straight up to loop it a couple of times, then I went for tailstalls, I noticed the plane was winging over but I still had control of it once nose went down (convinient).
I did a dive too from the alt I was, good acceleration, notice my start alt and end spped. I did a high G flat turn, have a look to my turn radius    (Image removed from quote.) I still could be precise enought to fly under hangar. Just before landing I went vertical again and tried to spin it by applying full back pressure and rudder at the stall nose up. I could barrely achieve a starting of spin. I idled throttle and landed. It can land on a CV w/out arresting hooks for sure too    (Image removed from quote.)

I'm not squeaking if it's normal or not, but it sure is a wonder plane, especially if flown by an experten.

Any coments on the film Vermillon, Ram, any1?

[/B]

I didn't read this whole thing so someone else may have done this. I tryed it in the N1K and got the same results. I tryed it in the 109F-4 no luck. I tryed it in the P-38 and did it. 50% fuel, wep, 150 mph, off the runway, and used flaps coming over the top. It just got easyer after the first loop. I had to try it a couple of times. The secret to all of them is not to pull back to quick at first. You will build a couple miles per hour as you start up the loop. I got no film but you guys can try it. It's not to hard. It looks like if I played with the Spit IX and the La5 more I might get them to do it also. The N1K is easy compared to the others. The 109G10 will almost do the first loop. I tryed it a bit but I don't think it would do a perfect loop. It's close. Maybe if you really played with it.


[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-11-2001).]

[AKDejaVu]

Jimdandy.. I did the same thing with the Zeke and the 109F-4.  As a matter of fact, I have yet to find a plane I can't do it with.

I have yet to see any evidence of N1k uberness.  Sure its a good plane, but it just doesn't do anything that other planes don't do.  It doesn't have some kind of magical energy bank and it doesn't turn instantly.  It is just a plane... though somewhere near the top of the food chain.

AKDejaVu

[Pongo]

I read an excellent article last year that was completly about Japanese over claiming in the Solomons. According to that article the overclaiming was systemic and had a very negative effect on the Japanese campaign against Henderson field. The Japanese were sure they had whiped out the Americans several times and consequently often never applied the force required to do the job.
I have recently read somewhere that the Japanese pilots claim to have shot down 4 hellcats in a Niki was found to be false and that no Planes were infact lost by the US unit in question. Ill try to remember where I saw that.
 

[Jimdandy]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Jimdandy.. I did the same thing with the Zeke and the 109F-4.  As a matter of fact, I have yet to find a plane I can't do it with.

I have yet to see any evidence of N1k uberness.  Sure its a good plane, but it just doesn't do anything that other planes don't do.  It doesn't have some kind of magical energy bank and it doesn't turn instantly.  It is just a plane... though somewhere near the top of the food chain.

AKDejaVu

Yep. I think if I wanted to spend the time messing with it I could get the other planes I tried to do it. I think the N1K is nicer to try that in than the others. The plane shines on AH because it was a great aircraft at low to medium alt's. In WWII was at a disadvantage because US bombers operated at alt's that were out of it's optimal operating conditions. When it was operating against US CV based aircraft it was great. They scream about the N1K I will hate to hear it when the Ki-84 shows up. I agree that it is one of the best planes on here but it can definitely be shot down. It's biggest advantage is the 20mm snap shot like the C-hog. It has a lot of fire power. But I can get the 30/20mm combo on the G-10 and have a lot of fire power. For that matter I've been flying the 109F-4 with the 20mm gondolas and it pops things quite well. How about a Typhoon. The C-hog is the most dangerous of all because it has the most ammo.