Author Topic: More Camel torque please  (Read 5642 times)

Offline hitech

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2010, 01:54:13 PM »
"A control moment gyroscope (CMG) is an example of a fixed-output-gimbal device that is used on spacecraft to hold or maintain a desired attitude angle or pointing direction using the gyroscopic resistance force." <----- Force

ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope

And that's twice now with the BS thing, but s'ok I'm still smiling  :cool:

Note the specific in your own statement (btw statement resistance force is really a resistance torque.) but note how it is said more clearly "desired attitude angle or pointing direction" (no where does it say control direction of flight) This is exactly what I am trying to explain to you. It can rotate the aircraft but it can not "TURN" the aircraft, no matter what you do with the gyro it will continue to travel in a straight line (pointing direction may change) but the direction of travel will not.

HiTech

Offline hitech

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2010, 01:59:51 PM »
Btw the satellite is a great example of a plane, in the exact same set up lift is acting like gravity creating the orbit or circle. The gyro can change the pointing direction just like the plane, but it will not in any way directly change the planes flight path just like the satellite will continue it's exact same orbit no matter what the gyro does.

HiTech

Offline wgmount

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2010, 03:43:49 PM »
All practical applications of the gyroscope are based upon two fundamental properties of gyroscopic action: rigidity in space and precession. The one of interest for this discussion is precession.
Precession is the resultant action, or deflection, of a spinning rotor when a deflecting force is applied to its rim. when a force is applied, the resulting force takes effect 90° ahead of and in the direction of rotation.



The rotating propeller of an airplane makes a very good gyroscope and thus has similar properties. Any time a force is applied to deflect the propeller out of its plane of rotation, the resulting force is 90° ahead of and in the direction of rotation and in the direction of application, causing a pitching moment, a yawing moment, or a combination of the two depending upon the point at which the force was applied.



http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/media/PHAK%20-%20Chapter%2004.pdf

The Camel in the game does turn better to the right than to the left. Have you experienced the wing stall when you try to turn left in a high banked turn in both the DR1 and F1? That is because the left wing was designed to provide more lift than the right to off set the effects of torque. In fact I believe the camel turns left better than the DR1. I also think the Camel is better suited as an E-fighter than the DR1.

And your quote from wikipedia "Because of the faster turning capability to the right, to change heading 90° to the left, many pilots preferred to do it by turning 270° to the right." how many ft is that is it 200', 300'.

As for the camel yes it enters a turn faster than a Dr1 from my experience but when the Dr1 gets to turning it can inside your turn and shoot you. I think the camel is better suited for the BnZ attack rather than the turn and burn.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands,
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."- H.L. Mencken

Offline bustr

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2010, 06:09:05 PM »
So after all this we have two observations.

1. The Camel in this game is gamey????????<----I trust HiTech to do his research so I don't think this observation is valid.

2. The torque of the rotary engine in the Camel will allow you to roll your right wing down faster than your left wing. This means you can place yourself into a right hand banked turn faster to the right due to the engine torque assisting the speed at which you can drop your right wing.<-----You can see the effects of massive torque during gunnery when you attempt to fine control your aim using the rudder. Left rudder and you track high over the target. Right rudder and you track low under the target.

Unless the OP is talking about the theoretical 4D wave and how high speed plasma streams at the edge of a gyro rotational object appear to act independently of the earths gravitational force.

But then a gyro rotational disk only wants to stabalise itself because it's evenly distributed around it's axis, not take off in a direction. But, in the plain of its rotation it's torque will effect a body attached to its axis by rotating the body in the direction of the plates spin. The propeller then has the problem with wanting to pull the aircraft to the left or right hand which is more sailent to the actual turn. Remember all that rudder on take off? The only thing the roatary engine can do is effect how fast the Camel rolls its right wing down. Obviously it did it better than any of the german designs in WWI.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline SCTusk

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2010, 11:04:48 PM »
Quote
Btw the satellite is a great example of a plane, in the exact same set up lift is acting like gravity creating the orbit or circle. The gyro can change the pointing direction just like the plane, but it will not in any way directly change the planes flight path just like the satellite will continue it's exact same orbit no matter what the gyro does.

HiTech

Finally we reach Base Camp :) Now it's just a couple of short ascents over what will probably still be rocky ground.

Having changed 'the pointing direction' on the aircraft (your words not mine) as a result of gyroscopic precession (how far and how fast? That would depend on the aircraft) all we need to do now is wait to see what the conventional flight forces do with the new 'pointing direction'. I don't know your calculation cycle rate (how many steps you use per second) but I'd imagine it's quite high. Each step would no doubt show some change in the thrust vector, the lift vector, etc etc. Each cycle would feed more gyroscopic precession into the mix as the pilot continues the turn. The aircraft won't fly sideways for long, the extra lift under the port wing and thrust will soon take effect. And another cycle. Then another. Pretty soon were pointing back the way we came, our turn radius is shorter than conventional flight allows, our turn rate is quicker than conventional flight allows. Airspeed under the starboard wing may drop off so much we suddenly spin, but we're able to control the turn and avoid it using left rudder. Sound familiar?

Camel pilots reported a sensation of turning on the spot with a strong rush of air on the left side of their faces. I'm wondering why the testimonials of these men are being ignored. I find it hard to believe that as the creator of this simulation you would simply dismiss their comments. I prefer to think that you'll keep an open mind, look closely at the evidence, do a 'hands on' experiment or two - you can't beat it for getting a good grasp on the issue, seriously; it's vital before you walk away to have a spinning mass in your hands which you can turn around - and perhaps also consult with a university.

I've been accused here of not providing sufficient evidence. I disagree. In any case, if the guy across the road from your place left his car lights on, but when you tell him he doesn't believe you, is it your responsibility to take supporting photos, measure current drain on his battery and then maybe find his car keys and switch them off? Or do you just pop over and give him a 'heads up', then go about your business? And before anyone jumps in, yes I'd like to see them switched off too but not enough to get a head of steam up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H98BgRzpOM&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pYi3-q_IVA&NR=1      

« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 01:35:26 AM by SCTusk »
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Offline wgmount

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2010, 03:08:49 AM »
You only provide anecdotal evidence from wikipedia and youtube.  I can see by your use of the term "show some change in thrust vector, and lift vector" that you really don't know much about airplanes and what makes them fly. I believe there are only 25, not sure, aircraft types that can change there thrust vector and the camel isn't one of them.

Show us how many ft it takes to turn right in a real Camel as opposed to the game. Then show us how many ft it takes to turn right in a DR 1. you like quotes from old guys here is one. You may have heard of it.

Actioni contrariam semper et æqualem esse reactionem: sive corporum duorum actiones in se mutuo semper esse æquales et in partes contrarias dirigi. - Isaac Newton

it means: whatever draws or presses another it is as much drawn or pressed by that other.

He may report a sensation that he turned on the spot but if he really did one of 2 things would happen. All the blood would rush from his head to his feet and he'd black out or atmospheric pressures would tear the plane apart. Planes are designed only to take so much g loading. I don't know the exact numbers but for a world war 1 plane I'd say around 6.





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Offline FLS

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2010, 04:06:46 AM »
SCTusk you continue to confuse rotating with turning. What you describe already happens in game. It's hard to believe you've flown the AH F1 and not noticed the torque that you claim is missing. Do you have the stall limiter turned on?

Offline bustr

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2010, 04:33:39 AM »
He may have not turned off the engine limiter. I forgot to check today with the new game version and got spanked in the WWI arena. By default the new install turns it back on. Wondered why it was so tame and stalled me out in every engagement.
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This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline hitech

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2010, 09:24:38 AM »
Quote
Each step would no doubt show some change in the thrust vector, the lift vector

Not really , the pilot would just compensate with controls  and the plane would fly the same.


So as I said at the very beginning control forces could cause extra drag but very minor. And also there would be extra control force in both directions of the turn it is not as if the gyro works one way and not the other.

Quote
Camel pilots reported a sensation of turning on the spot with a strong rush of air on the left side of their faces. I'm wondering why the testimonials of these men are being ignored. I find it hard to believe that as the creator of this simulation you would simply dismiss their comments. I prefer to think that you'll keep an open mind, look closely at the evidence, do a 'hands on' experiment or two - you can't beat it for getting a good grasp on the issue, seriously; it's vital before you walk away to have a spinning mass in your hands which you can turn around - and perhaps also consult with a university.

Nothing is being ignored. Your turning left, nose is yawing right or up, hmm plane is slipping, hmm feel wind from left side of face if you do not put in rudder. Also all your comments so far would be nothing special to the camel, they also happen on the dr1.


Quote
I find it hard to believe that as the creator of this simulation you would simply dismiss their comments.

I find it very hard to believe that you do not give the creator of 2 flight simulations over a 15 year period a little credit for knowing physics , Also a pilot who flys a tail dagger and feels the gyro effects on every take.

And you once again prove with your this post that you are really talking pure bs and grasping at straws to make your desire true. And if you look closely I have never stated one thing about the camel vs other planes, I have just been shining a light on the statements you make about physics that have no basis in fact.


HiTech
 


Offline SCTusk

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2010, 02:05:06 PM »
I'm sorry you feel this way HiTech, I certainly do have respect for your knowledge and experience (clearly this isn't reciprocated lol). Presumably though there may be the occassional thing which comes along where you probably take some pleasure in learning something new as I certainly do myself. I have been trying to the best of my ability to communicate what I believe to be just such a thing, all the while maintaining what I hope is a good humour and friendly disposition.

I have at least arrived at a simple experiment which anyone should be able to arrange (and surely considering the strength of opinion against my proposition one which anyone involved in this thread thus far should be eager to perform). As a group of aviation enthusiasts I'm confident that most of us have access to some form of small model aircraft with an electric motor driving a propeller, a childs toy perhaps or something more serious but small enough to suspend from the ceiling by cotton or string in an approximation of a level flight attitude. Aside from any scientific considerations this experiment is great fun :)

The purpose of the experiment is to examine the effects of gyroscopic precession on an aircraft in motion (specifically in a turn).

The experiment initially requires the motor to be turned off. If there are any control surfaces they should be in the neutral position. The aircraft should be released with the suspending thread taut, at a point removed from the centre of suspension (i.e. off centre) with enough impetus for the momentum to carry it around in a circle. Care should be taken at all times not to allow the suspending thread to become overly twisted, otherwise an undesirable torque might act on the model. If the model is not too heavy for the intended purpose observation should confirm that as it moves around in a circle the nose always points approximately forward. To confirm that there is no bias the test should be conducted in both directions, i.e. left and right hand circles.

All being well we can now turn the motor on and repeat the tests in both directions. (a propeller is actually unnecessary as it is the gyroscopic effect of the motor we are testing, but if the model has one it should not affect the result greatly). Observation should confirm that the model travels around in a circle with the nose forward as before in one direction but not the other (direction dependent on motor spin direction).

At this point the rudder or fin should be moved from the neutral position to the left yaw position and the test repeated in both directions, then subsequently to the right yaw position with the test again repeated in both directions. Observation should confirm that in the direction favoured by gyroscopic precession the model can be made to turn around a very small radius, whereas in the unfavourable direction only large radius turns are possible.

In this simple experiment we made use of a suspending thread as a substitute for lift. Depending on the model used it is possible that the airspeed attained during the testing is insufficient to provide lift, and an argument could be made that this renders the test invalid. However, since the purpose of the experiment is to examine the effects of gyroscopic precession on an aircraft in motion the airspeed need only be sufficient to act appropriately on the fin and rudder.

Conclusions.

An effect was noted which appeared to continuously assist the model to turn in one direction, and continuously resist it in the opposite direction. It would seem safe to assume that gyroscopic precession caused the effect, that it acted continuously due to the continuous change of direction of the model, and that the extent to which this affected the model is a matter of degree. It can be further concluded that given a sufficiently large effect (i.e. by manipulation of factors such as balance and distribution of mass in the aircraft, mass of rotating body, speed of rotation of mass, aerodynamic properties of the aircraft) it would be possible to create an aircraft capable of extreme minimum turning radius in one direction at the expense of a large turning radius in the opposite direction.

It is quite possible that someone might get different results to those outlined above; or that they might draw different conclusions. I think the nature of the investigation having so much contradictory evidence and being such an unfamiliar phenomenon makes it one of enormous interest. Certainly a search on the net shows multiple instances of this very topic, always with similar polarisation of the contributing posters.
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Offline hitech

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2010, 02:43:30 PM »
SCTusk, I have a better way for you to test. Jump in the camel in AH make coordinated turns to right and left and time them.

HiTech

Offline bustr

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2010, 04:17:10 PM »
I just finished an experiment. I used a standard toy gyroscope you can purchase from a toy store.

1. I mounted the gyro by its axis post into the end of a rod.
2. The Camel looks like its CG is about 1/5 back from the gnome rotory so I counter balanced the rod at that point.
3. I created a heavy base with a verticle rod mounted into a race bering.
4. I mounted the balanced gyro/rod across the end of the verticle rod so it freely rotated in any direction horizontal to the ground.
5. I wound string onto the gyro and left fly with a right hand twist.
6. It just sat there with the gyroscope spinning. I had to lift the base at which point I could make the gyro/rod move left or right.

Conclusion: You need a propeller to cause induced yaw which you correct with your rudder.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline SCTusk

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2010, 06:26:31 AM »
On to the next experiment, which is a work in progress. Those familiar with radio control model aircraft would no doubt be aware of the current trend of using brushless electric motors rather than internal combustion engines. One common type used is the outrunner which has a large spinning mass, making it an ideal scale substitute for the rotary engine. I have a small collection of models, some of which are thus equipped. Here's a link to an onboard video of a semi-scale F4U Corsair which I tend to fly fairly conservatively for a number of reasons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPmmG9tzpfE

The video only proves one thing - my r/c skills are average at best. But I can attest to the fact that this model, which has the motor well forward of the CG, can turn 180 degrees to the right in very short order. Left turns however are much more sedate.

I have a box with the remains of an outrunner equipped Harvard (similar to the Texan) which I'm sure you will know has a short nose with most of the mass near the CG. It gave me some nasty moments on the maiden takeoff, yawing and dropping its' wing etc, but seemed to settle down ok into the usual left hand circuits. After a few minutes I relaxed and decided to put it through some manoeuvres, but I wasn't up to the task of simply turning sharply right (instantaneous right hand spin) and thus the box of bits.

I can think of several scientific objections to comparing models with full size aircraft, but I wanted to make it clear where my opinion originates; I can't help what I see in the behaviour of these aircraft, and if they 'snap' turn in spectacular fashion to the right yet fly sedate left turns (which they seem to do) I find myself more inclined to believe the anecdotal pilot reports about the Camel. If the experiment were likely to be well received (and I doubt this judging by reaction so far in this thread) and if I had the necessary flying skills I would be only too ready to build a semi-scale Camel and conduct whatever tests were deemed useful. But the minor disaster with the Harvard shows that the effect is so pronounced in such aircraft that I lack the experience to tame them.

For the record, I took HiTech's advice and timed some co-ordinated turns in the Camel, which did show a tendency for more rapid turns to the right (possibly as much as 1 second, or about 10% but I was unable to fly neatly enough to be certain). So it would seem there might be something going on in there which I had been previously unable to detect. If so, then the entire question is more a matter of degree.

"We don't have a plan, so nothing can go wrong." (Spike Milligan)

Read my WW1 online novel 'Blood and Old Bones' at http://www.ww1sims.com/
A tribute to WW1 airmen and the squadron spirit, inspired by virtual air combat.

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Offline bustr

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #73 on: May 17, 2010, 03:57:32 PM »
Does this mean I have to give the gyroscope back now?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Pongo

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #74 on: May 17, 2010, 04:54:25 PM »
An extraordinary thread, and surely some kind of record for someone on his 37th post and his first month in the game.