Brewster

[Wmaker]

I have no problem it being used or not being used in Special Events. Either way is ok with me. Brewster's practically non-existant altitude performance compared to th A6M2 for example (which is accurate) will severely hamper it in a Special Events setting...far more than it ever will in the MA. Right now A6M2 seems to be roughly 200lbs over weight according to common weight listings I have seen. Once Pyro remodels the Zeke line up that might help it further.

The fact that so few F2A-1s were actually produced and documented in flight tests as well as the F2A-2 and F2A-3, makes it difficult to understand how or why the AH B-239 can out maneuver planes in AH that people tend to think should not be outmaneuvered by the Brew.

Drawing unlogical conclusions from things like this never gets anyone very far. The real reasons why Navy gave up on the Brewsters haven't even been properly discussed on this board yet as far as I can remember. No, the defeats in a single combat weren't the reason by itself, not even close. The result of that combat would have been exactly the same if the Brewsters would have been replaced with Wildcats.

[Baumer]

I have no problem it being used or not being used in Special Events. Either way is ok with me. Brewster's practically non-existant altitude performance compared to th A6M2 for example (which is accurate) will severely hamper it in a Special Events setting...far more than it ever will in the MA. Right now A6M2 seems to be roughly 200lbs over weight according to common weight listings I have seen. Once Pyro remodels the Zeke line up that might help it further.

Wmaker, given the Brewsters superior performance in last months FSO (at 20 to 25k) this dose not appear to be the case. The Brewster was an even match for the A6M2 at altitude, and was able to dive away to then zoom climb in a manner that the Zero could not match. As it stands now (in my opinion) the Brewster is clearly the most superior early war aircraft model we have. Using them in events is going to be tricky because of their dominant performance and will have to be balanced by limiting their numbers.

I hope that when HTC remodels the A6M's we will be able to get a much better comparison.

The only issue I have with the Brewster, is the amount of hit's they can take and continue to fly well, I'm not sure if it's the new damage model being to strong, or the old AH1 planes being rather weak. Not to say that there is anything wrong with the Brewster, but I will be very interested to see how a remodeled A6M2 compares (whenever it gets done) absorbing hits. 

[AWwrgwy]

The Brewster faced 4 to 1 odds at Midway versus superior, experienced Japanese pilots and were decimated.

The Brewster sux.

The Brewster faced 4 to 1 odds against the Russians in Europe and were an overwhelming success.

It was the superior pilots, of course.

 

Same argument.  Maybe the Brew really wasn't that bad.



wrongway

[humble]

I think you have to expand the argument a bit. The Hawk75 performed exceptionally well in both French and Finnish service. The P39 was perceived as having problems in Port Moresby yet statistically it performed better then the British spitfire equipped unit that followed it. The marine unit at Midway was more then 50% reserve pilots and pitted against the best pilots in a superior plane. Parks put his best pilots in the F4F's which IMO accounts more for the survival/kill ratio's then the difference in planes.

going back to the Rangoon FSO I flew the Brewster in one frame and the simple reality (as it relates to our experience) is that the Zeke's were poorly handled and suffered from circumstance. While they clearly had the upper hand at altitude the D3A/B5N's came in low and that not only brought the zekes down but put them in a situation where clearing a low friendly left them open to a diving attack from a different Brewster and extending then left the mud movers exposed. This is the same issue the luftwaffe had in BoB...U can't tie your escort up like that.

[Wmaker]

Wmaker, given the Brewsters superior performance in last months FSO (at 20 to 25k) this dose not appear to be the case. The Brewster was an even match for the A6M2 at altitude, and was able to dive away to then zoom climb in a manner that the Zero could not match. As it stands now (in my opinion) the Brewster is clearly the most superior early war aircraft model we have. Using them in events is going to be tricky because of their dominant performance and will have to be balanced by limiting their numbers.

Rgr, that may be. Of course there are a lot factors at play here. One thing is the high speed handling but that is very well documented for both of these types. Another is the armament in the game. 4*50 cals will be utterly superior to the A6M2 armament no matter which airframe they are mounted. I would also wish people would think about the differences between the game in general and the real war. The differences in the situations doesn't just limit themselves to the plane types in question.

So in short, it is my belief that if the B239 did that to the Zekes, F2A-3 would have done exactly the same thing. The difference in the armament playes a huge huge role in this sim. Hurricane IIc is a good example of that. Also F4F-4 with 6*guns and F2A-3 are actually quite comparable on paper and F4F-4 has many times dominated in these events over the A6M2.

The only issue I have with the Brewster, is the amount of hit's they can take and continue to fly well,

I guess they are giving me the wrong Brewsters. If there's something wrong in that department I hope HTC finds it now that they are looking through the damage models of the planes recently.

[gyrene81]

So in short, it is my belief that if the B239 did that to the Zekes, F2A-3 would have done exactly the same thing.

The differences between the B-239 and the F2A-3 may not seem like a lot when reading specs but every pilot that lived to talk about the -3 model says the same thing, it was inferior to the F2A-2, even the Brits flying the B-339E disliked the F2A-3 so there is no way it would have the same performance to the B-239 if modeled correctly in AH.

[Baumer]

Wmaker, like I said I don't think it's a problem with the Brewster (but maybe    ) but a difference between the older aircraft models and the newer ones. I am really looking forward to the full integration of the new damage model and all the possibilities that brings.

I agree about the differences between the models (and what happened in history vs how we use them in game). I just was making the point that the Brewsters use in events has to be balanced with it's performance (just like any other plane in Aces High). 

Snaphook, I understand and agree with you to a point, but the Brewster was able to point its nose down and make up the speed difference between it and the A6M2 very easily.



It was very common to see the Brewsters with a slight altitude advantage (makes sense that they had alt being used in a defensive role), they would then go dose down, pick up speed, and merge co-alt in that FSO. I agree that the A6M2's were not always flown to their best strengths, but the Brewster was (in general) equal to the Zeke at altitude and could dive away when in trouble. The Zeke could not do the same.

[Wmaker]

Wmaker, like I said I don't think it's a problem with the Brewster (but maybe    ) but a difference between the older aircraft models and the newer ones. I am really looking forward to the full integration of the new damage model and all the possibilities that brings.

No worries Baumer, I know from the past that with you this conversation will follow good logic.

I agree about the differences between the models (and what happened in history vs how we use them in game). I just was making the point that the Brewsters use in events has to be balanced with it's performance (just like any other plane in Aces High).

Rgr that. That comment of mine was intended in a general way. I know that you being a good CM have to think about these things a lot and have the passion for the history too.

but the Brewster was able to point its nose down and make up the speed difference between it and the A6M2 very easily.

One thing that really comes to play in here is the reach of the .50 cals.

[humble]

The Biggest issues were the tendency of the zeke drivers not to E fight combined with the mission design that placed them in a quandary. Dive down to protect the attack planes or protect the perch? This is a match up where the zeke has to E fight since it cant afford to trade blows or get caught up in any type of a reversing fight. It is IMO a very demanding fight for the zeke in the sense that it requires patience and discipline since any lapse offers a FQ shot to the brewster that will often end the fight...

[Saxman]

...F4F-4 has many times dominated in these events over the A6M2.

Interesting how no one is on here screaming about the F4F's flight modeling.

We have the benefit of the experience of the pilots who actually fought that war when we take planes up. We already know what tactics work best against certain opponents. You can't help that pilots flying for the Allies in pre-Midway events already know to use hit and run and cooperative tactics against the Zero. We don't have pilots indoctrinated into the old-school of aerial combat learning through trial and error that, oops, trying to maneuver with the Zero doesn't work. We already KNOW the tactics that developed to counter the Zero, and this is why the Allies often seem to end up with an advantage against the Japanese plane set, despite "inferior" aircraft.

The Brewster has the same key advantages as the F4F: Good instantaneous turn, good diving ability, good high-speed handling, excellent firepower, and good durability. She has the same disadvantages: The Zero is faster and has better acceleration, is superior in the vertical and sustained maneuvers (sorry guys, but the Brewster does NOT beat the Zero in a sustained turning fight. I've been in enough of them to know that if I don't end the fight in the first half-turn or so he's got me unless I've got a friend to clear my six).

[Wmaker]

Interesting how no one is on here screaming about the F4F's flight modeling.

Yep, that was my point exactly.

[lyric1]

Hey Lyric, try this site out...some interesting reading.

http://www.warbirdforum.com/buff.htm



 

I know it well in fact I am on that BBS in a few threads.

[dtango]

My my, all this gnashing of teeth about the Brewster Buffalo .  What a riddle the B-239 is indeed.

Riddle me this- what difference would it make on performance to take a B-239, add 200hp and 1,000lbs weight to it? 

Oh nevermind.  They did do that didn't they!  That's the hunk of junk they called the F2A-3 that was shot to pieces over Midway!

Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[321BAR]

The majority of the Finns who received the B-239s had less flying general time than their U.S., British and Dutch counterparts and yet they managed to achieve phenomenal results, so pilot inexperience isn't entirely a solid argument one way or the other.

phenominal? try astrological...they still have the record for one pilot's kill record over any other aviator. They had a victory ratio of 26 to 1 versus the Russians. Hans Wind has the most kills in any Brewster with 39 kills, 26 of which were in BW-393 and Eino Juutilainen scored another 7 in that same plane. Eino Juutilainen scored 34 of his 94 and a half kills in B-239s. BW-393 scored 41 kills and is possibly the highest single aircraft with the most victories in air warfare

[Karnak]

Interesting how no one is on here screaming about the F4F's flight modeling.

I have questioned it in the past.  I recall an F4F pilot at the 2001 con watching somebody fly the AH1 F4F, mixing it up with Zeros and commenting that the game looked fun, but if they'd tried that with Zeros in reality they'd have died.

I don't know how much the maneuverability is off, if at all, but the firepower and durability differences seem too great.  As modeled in AH the F4Fs would have slaughtered the Zeros wholesale as the Zeros have no choice but to saddle up for long tracking shots, giving other F4Fs ample time to blow the now not maneuvering Zero to bits.