Author Topic: Now that it's over  (Read 4145 times)

Offline AKKaz

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2010, 03:22:17 PM »
   Id prefer that all settings be MA standard for FSO.  Id leave the experimentation to special events that people can go join to try out. Maybe use the AvA as the test bed.

Completely agree...
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Offline ImADot

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2010, 06:47:39 PM »
Quote
Id prefer that all settings be MA standard for FSO.  Id leave the experimentation to special events that people can go join to try out. Maybe use the AvA as the test bed.

Completely agree...

Completely disagree...

The AvA has its own settings, which once you're used to is actually quite fun.

Likewise, the FSO should have its own settings - maybe not quite like AvA, but certainly different from the MA.  If you use standard MA settings, we might as well all just play in the MA and join mishuns.  FSO should make you work a little harder and cooperate a lot more than just flying around in the MA.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2010, 07:18:51 PM »
   Id prefer that all settings be MA standard for FSO.  Id leave the experimentation to special events that people can go join to try out. Maybe use the AvA as the test bed.

Completely agree...
Why? If the settings in the FSO were MA standard what would be the difference? It's not just the objectives and orders that make the FSO what it is...it has to be more of a challenge than the MA's or it's just a waste of couple of hours on a Friday night.
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Offline FiLtH

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2010, 01:49:48 PM »
   Why does it have to be more of a challenge on a friday night? After showing up early and looking forward to a couple hours of play, I'd hate to have some experimental change upset the apple cart and ruin my night's fun. Just because you want a challenge, like no icons etc, doesnt mean everyone else does. We've been over this many times. 

   The "challenge" for an FSO is to make sure you can manage a squad, and get the required numbers to show up for friday night. To read and follow your orders, and to enjoy yourselves so you look forward to next week. It has nothing to do with winds aloft, icon ranges, manual bombing, and other experimental tweaks.

   

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Offline ghostdancer

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2010, 02:42:47 PM »
Gentlemen,

Just to put some perspective in here as a designer. When new elements or settings are provided by HTC we do evaluate them and try them out if the designer believes will add to the overall enjoyment. We have used wind, manual calibration, night time and dusk settings, etc. in the past. Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not enhanced game play.

In regards to the whole icon issue in the last 12 FSOs the icon setting has only been changed from 3K enemy / 3K friendly to something different in 2 of the 12 setups. The other times the icon settings have differed from those settings was not intended for the frame it happened in.

So yes, new functionality is incorporated by the designers but we do listen to feedback and adjust.


Adventure in the Dodecenes   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 3k
IN HARMS WAY: Ryukyu Islands October 1945   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 3k
Sicilian Stranglehold   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 3k
Should Have Been a Milkrun   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 3k (icons off below 200')
A Mindanao Sunset   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 3k
Targets of Opportunity   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 1k (icons off below 500')
Angels Eight   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 3k
Rangoon Sunrise   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 3k
Breaking Gustave 1944   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 3k
Operation Marita   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 3k
ARMAGEDDON: Japan Summer 1945   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 3k
Operation Panzerfaust   =   Icons friendly 3k/enemy 3k


« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 03:01:53 PM by ghostdancer »
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2010, 03:18:34 PM »
You guys should have checked the wind sock  :neener:

Here is a successful crosswind landing I made earlier today, in an aircraft far lighter than a Corsair, and with gusts ranging from 10 - 15 mph. Krusty, it's important to apply rudder and yaw into the wind. Keep practicing in offline mode.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

Easy mode.

Let's see it with a taildragger  :devil
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Offline FiLtH

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2010, 04:07:39 PM »
   Its always the same cheerleaders from both sides ranting. I suggest an FSO poll on whether we would like the designs to be standard or free to do whatever. 1 vote per player of course.

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Offline ROC

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2010, 04:25:13 PM »
You simply cannot have a "standard" setup if you want variations in the design.  There are good designs that need the flexibility to change the settings, there is never going to be a "standard" setup that will ever be agreed on.  What one person likes, as this thread shows, someone else won't like.

Ghostdancer showed that even reacting to the "constant" short icon ranges have only happened on 2 of 12 events.  Don't tie the designers hands, just provide feedback and consider this particular forum is not the only source of information that get's to the designers.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2010, 05:23:29 PM »
   Why does it have to be more of a challenge on a friday night? After showing up early and looking forward to a couple hours of play, I'd hate to have some experimental change upset the apple cart and ruin my night's fun. Just because you want a challenge, like no icons etc, doesnt mean everyone else does. We've been over this many times. 

   The "challenge" for an FSO is to make sure you can manage a squad, and get the required numbers to show up for friday night. To read and follow your orders, and to enjoy yourselves so you look forward to next week. It has nothing to do with winds aloft, icon ranges, manual bombing, and other experimental tweaks.
No Filth I wasn't talking about "experimental tweaks". I was talking more along the lines of "not MA standards". I'm pretty certain over the course of several heated discussions that no enemy icons is not appropriate for FSO so that item can be dropped. But what about 3k for enemy/friendly? Or different radar settings? Wind at varying alts? Clouds and fog? Those settings take some tweaking to get right.
jarhed  
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Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline FiLtH

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2010, 10:32:10 PM »
  The 3k icon is fine, as long as its all the way to the deck. The clouds/fog wind dont really bother the fighters that much, but it plays havoc with the bombs. Couple that with manual aim and you can bet alot of guys slated for bomber duty are going to feel like it was a waste of a night.

  The radar,since the dots are off isnt that big except when it flashes a base. If too small a ring, it can allow attacks to get in unopposed before the cap can intercept. INTERCEPTION of enemy flights should be the priority over any eye candy, or use of a tool that the game can provide the designer.

  I guess all Im asking is that the designers and FSO CMs dont forget that where 5 people or so may be involved in the design of an FSO, and may be aware of every effect they produce, 500 others show up to play it. Every effort should be made to allow fights to happen, and in a way thats not totally alien to them. Where we appreciate their efforts in designing and running FSOs, please appreciate our time for showing up to play them.

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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2010, 05:27:31 AM »
  The 3k icon is fine, as long as its all the way to the deck. The clouds/fog wind dont really bother the fighters that much, but it plays havoc with the bombs. Couple that with manual aim and you can bet alot of guys slated for bomber duty are going to feel like it was a waste of a night.

  The radar,since the dots are off isnt that big except when it flashes a base. If too small a ring, it can allow attacks to get in unopposed before the cap can intercept. INTERCEPTION of enemy flights should be the priority over any eye candy, or use of a tool that the game can provide the designer.

  I guess all Im asking is that the designers and FSO CMs dont forget that where 5 people or so may be involved in the design of an FSO, and may be aware of every effect they produce, 500 others show up to play it. Every effort should be made to allow fights to happen, and in a way thats not totally alien to them. Where we appreciate their efforts in designing and running FSOs, please appreciate our time for showing up to play them.

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Offline ghostdancer

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2010, 08:08:30 AM »
No CM or designer wants to design a bad or non fun event. However, we do want the events to simulate the theater of combat at the time. Different theaters and different time periods had different conditions. Using the tools we try to simulate what we can to give it that flavor.

Quote
The 3k icon is fine, as long as its all the way to the deck.

This issue is probably the most divisive among the players and we CMs do know that. As I have stated it has been tried 2 times out of 12 (or 2 out of the last 6 designs). Changing from the 3k visibility has not been the norm.

Quote
The clouds/fog wind dont really bother the fighters that much, but it plays havoc with the bombs. Couple that with manual aim and you can bet alot of guys slated for bomber duty are going to feel like it was a waste of a night.

Several theaters of operations were known for their weather, Aeutians comes to mind. When including weather and or manual aiming a designer is trying to accomplish several possible things:

  • A theater and time period might have been known for combat operations only being at a certain altitude, the Burma Campaign comes to mind that combat operations were in the teens not 20Ks or higher. So a designer has a couple of choices to A) just live with the players conducting operations at whatever alt they like B) to set a wind layer blowing down at max wind speed at say 18K C) Put some weather over the target so that level bombers need to operate at lower alts to make sure the avoid the cloud cover. This said designers should provide the players with a weather report so they can plan accordingly (i.e. Possible clouds over target fro 17K to 20K, winds at 10 mph 19K from the east).
  • Manual calibration is used by some designers to make up or compensate for formations on and the available targets not needing much ordinance to kill them. Basically one two flights of B17s or Ju88s with formations can take out a small airbase by themselves. With manual calibration you make it harder and require each side deploy more bombers to make sure they get the job done. Or a designer can turn formations off. The challenge here is that while some bombers are survivable without formations (B17, B24, B26, Ki67, etc.) some bombers really aren't (Boston III comes to mind). So depending on the setting you will usually see formations on and manual calibration versus formations off and MA calibrations. Even then sometimes you will see MA calibration on and formations on when a designer wants to emphasize fighter combat and protection of small bomber force in his design. In this setting you will see a larger percentage of fighters involved than bombers since no CiC usually wants to deploy more bombers than they are required to.
  • And of course the pilots in WW2 had to deal with weather conditions, so instead of it being sunny and clear skies all the time CMs every now and then throw in conditions that both sides have to deal with. Again the key here is for the designer to provide a weather report (just like pilots got in real life back then) making them aware of conditions and allowing them to plan accordingly.

Quote
 The radar,since the dots are off isnt that big except when it flashes a base. If too small a ring, it can allow attacks to get in unopposed before the cap can intercept. INTERCEPTION of enemy flights should be the priority over any eye candy, or use of a tool that the game can provide the designer.

Different base under attack settngs (create by radar rings) simulate different theaters. In BOB it is much larger since the British had a very sophisticated early warning net that consisted of radar and ground spotters. In a Slot setup you have a the Coast Watchers so most designers go with a larger ring. In an Aleutians setup you have almost no infrastructure or population in the battle area hence a smaller ring. The same holds true in Greece. At the time Greece didn't have a strong infrastructure (making it very difficult to ground spotters to relay information) and the terrain made it very difficult to spot enemy planes far out from bases.

This said there are many ways to compensate for this. CiCs can deploy pickets to create a line which will hopefully spot incoming attacks far out from their intended targets. Also CiCs can task pilots to actively scout and to try to find the incoming attacks by flying out from targets and looking for the enemy. Both tactics have been used in the past many times. A CiC that just has squads orbiting a base increases the chance of an attack slipping by them when the are on the far side of their orbit.

A CM does not change the base under attack radius just because it is a tool or eye candy. They change it to simulate conditions. Again a CM needs to make players aware of this and other settings so that the can plan accordingly.

Quote
I guess all Im asking is that the designers and FSO CMs dont forget that where 5 people or so may be involved in the design of an FSO, and may be aware of every effect they produce, 500 others show up to play it. Every effort should be made to allow fights to happen, and in a way thats not totally alien to them. Where we appreciate their efforts in designing and running FSOs, please appreciate our time for showing up to play them.

Designers are exceedingly aware of the fact that we are designing for the players. This is why even during an event we will tweak and change things if results and data show that things are out of whack. At times we have swapped one squad from one side to the other when the player percentage we went with and thought was good is shown to be off do to the results of the frame. Or why me might introduce an additional plane to the planeset (in the case of Dodacenese I think that 109Gs and 109G6s can take on Spit Vs, Spit IXs, Seafires and C.205s. If the results show that I am seriously wrong in my logic then it is reasonable that the Germans would rush n 190A5s to help shore up the theater) or change the min and max numbers for plane types.

None of us want to see an event fail, flounder, or the majority of players not have fun. At the same time we have to do a balancing act where we look at the event as a whole ... the 500 player level ... and realize that we can't guarantee things down to the 5 player encounter. Sometimes things just happen and people see no action or something else happens. Sometimes giving the CiC as much freedom as possible to plan and run a battle means you are also giving them the freedom to fail. There area also many times that a vocal minority will complain about this and that and insist their point of view is the truth. Examples are a person swearing up and down that bomber came in at 30K even though everybody else involved says otherwise. CMs have to look into things like this and complaints about planesets and evaluate them but again we have to look at this from the overall event and from the 500 player view. 5 or 10 people being upset with something doesn't over ride the rest being fine with it. The rub is determining if it is indeed whether or not it was a local issue or indeed an event wide issue.

This is also why we post the description of the event in advance so that players can ask questions or raise concerns. If we find a concern valid yes, we will and have changed things in past events.

Squire, myself and Nefarious have been doing this for a long time. Daddog was the one who originally created FSOs (called Squad Ops way back in 2002). We don't want events to fail. We don't want to stick it to players. We strive for trying to make as enjoyable as possible for every player even though we know you can't sastify all 400-500 people playing. All we really ask is civility from posting concerns and interacting with us. Also to understand that maybe your experience is not the majority experience. We do spends tons and tons and tons of time looking into everything that is brought up by players. We are not your adversaries and would appreciated not being treated that way.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 08:18:04 AM by ghostdancer »
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Offline daddog

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2010, 10:02:31 AM »
Nice GD. :) +1

I want to mention that FSO was originally called Tour of Duty. We dropped Tour of Duty because Pyro asked if he could use it, so we switched to Squad Operations.

Back then we had Squad Ops on Friday and Saturday. The Saturday Squad Ops never really took hold. After a year or two we finally dropped it and just ran with Friday Squad Ops, hence the 'Friday Squad Ops' name as opposed to just Squad Operations.
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Offline FiLtH

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2010, 10:11:56 AM »
     Ghost I do appreciate what you are saying. I understand why you want to have the freedom of design. Im just asking that you guys take care while doing so, that you dont make the settings so "realistic" that the player's enjoyment suffers. Spending an hour to a target that you know has winds,using manual aim, and fog thrown in for good measure, is the about the same as dribbling a 12" basketball down a court for an hour and throwing it at a 10" hoop.

     I can't speak for other squads, ours enjoys a good bomb run, but we hate to begin the night knowing that the chances of hitting the target are slim. We'd prefer getting smoked before drop, rather than the game settings being the factor.

     I certainly dont see you guys as adversaries. I am thankful someone is out there dedicated to spend the time to put these together. This is my feedback that Im giving. I always try to say WTG when I see a great design, like Squire's last one, "In Harm's Way". But I also feedback when Im disappointed about certain things. Don't take it personally.

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Offline ghostdancer

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Re: Now that it's over
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2010, 10:21:39 AM »
Filth I wasn't taking your comments personal.

I was just explaining why designers do some things. Yes, having manual calibration, clouds, and winds on would indeed be overkill for bombers. Usually it is one or other when I design. In the upcoming setup I might have clouds in frame 2 or frame 3 but no wind and MA calibration.

Oh, and new skins for bombers that have a big red bullseye on them. ;)

As for my comments about being seen as an adversary and civility that was not aimed at you. However, there are several players that, to be truthful, are coming across as uncivil and do make myself feel as if I am the enemy. I am more than willing to discuss civilly any issue and hear out any players case. If I think it is a valid concern I do indeed make changes and have fall back plans. Just some players don't realize that at times I and other CMs will go no, after discussing with them and doing research that we believe show this is a local issue or an issue that only affected a small minority of players.


« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 10:26:18 AM by ghostdancer »
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