ar234 question

[lyric1]

I think its much more likely that the artists that did the 3D sketches of these planes after the war included the guns and therefore began the confusion.

In part. Some of those drawings are Arado factory drawings. It seems that they wanted to do it & just could not get the periscope figured out in time for the B model.

Think about it you have a rearward & downward firing fixed guns that are mounted on the bottom of the aircraft. Then you mount a periscope on top of the aircraft that only looks directly backwards in terms of checking your six. The periscope had a dual function look back & to be used with the on board computer for dive bombing when turned forward.

So how do you manage to position your aircraft even to get an accurate shot at an attacking enemy from any angle he approaches with the periscope? Line of site almost seems impossible to me to achieve.

The B model was at best a transition aircraft 210 were made & Arado had stopped making the B model in 1944 some time. The C model was where they were looking & that was the only model that had rear guns fitted at all & yet they did not work & were also removed.

They were going to come back to it as most of the C models were to have the pods fitted with various packages. They simply ran out of time to get it all figured out.

[lyric1]

Some Pictures & some info of interest.

Top of periscope.





Sighting mechanism for rear view & for dive bombing.









This is from an old book from the 60's info is not correct for the most part. It at least gives an idea what the view may have been like through the sight.



External view of the horizontal bomb sight.







The German engineers were disappointed when AR-234 pilots would not use the horizontal bombing computer & preferred dive bombing instead. Read this & I think you can see why.



A few drawings of the night fighter version.





Just to beat the horse some more lets do it in a second language.

[lyric1]

Well let's see if the German museum has what I am looking for.

[lyric1]

Well let's see if the German museum has what I am looking for.




(Image removed from quote.)

No luck with them. Imperial war museum next.

Arado Ar 234Tuesday, March 15, 2011 8:19 AM
From: "Hans Holzer" <h.holzer@deutsches-museum.de>Add sender to ContactsTo:Dear Mr.
Sorry,but we have no photographs of
periscope view on the AradoAr 234 jet bomber.
Sorry!
Regards
------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Holzer
curator of aeronautics
Deutsches Museum
80306 Muenchen
Germany
Tel:+49-89-2179-258
Fax:+49-89-2179-514
E-Mail: H.Holzer@deutsches-museum.de
http://www.deutsches-museum.de
------------------------------------------------------------

[lyric1]

No luck with them. Imperial war museum next.

Arado Ar 234Tuesday, March 15, 2011 8:19 AM
From: "Hans Holzer" <h.holzer@deutsches-museum.de>Add sender to ContactsTo:Dear Mr.
Sorry,but we have no photographs of
periscope view on the AradoAr 234 jet bomber.
Sorry!
Regards
------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Holzer
curator of aeronautics
Deutsches Museum
80306 Muenchen
Germany
Tel:+49-89-2179-258
Fax:+49-89-2179-514
E-Mail: H.Holzer@deutsches-museum.de
http://www.deutsches-museum.de
------------------------------------------------------------

 

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 6:19 AM
From: "Ian Carter" <icarter@IWM.ORG.UK>Add sender to ContactsTo:  Dear Mr

Thanks for your enquiry.

I regret we do not have any photos relevant to your enquiry.

I am sorry we cannot help you on this occasion.

Sincerely

Ian Carter
Curator
Photograph Archive
Imperial War Museum
020 7416 5326
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The enquiry was received on: 17/03/11 02:07 am

Our question number: IWM156055

The question:
Do you have any photos on file views that would be seen through the
perisope of the German jet bomber the Arado-234? I am looking for the
rearward & forward views for some research I am doing on this aircraft.
A number were captured & were evaluated during & at wars end in the UK.

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[lyric1]

I found a drawing from a German book I have. That shows an AR-234 that was a concept aircraft that shows some forward gun pod packages that looks very similar to a picture Krusty had posted on another thread. Looks like they were thinking day light fighter with this one to tackle allied fighters.

Kusty's picture.

[lyric1]

Few more pages from the same book. It had several references to the periscope views & something to do with a FW-190 in a test from my very rough translation.







 So I asked Lusche to give me a rough translation this just a partial as he has not finished translating it all yet. Thank you very much Snailman.


In short: this is the report of a series of test flights simulating fake attacks runs on several ground and air (!) targets. The intention was to test the usability of the periscope as a sight as well as checking the general inflight behaviour during those runs. It's noted that several different pilots did install the periscopes independently from each other to verify the routine being practical in the field (It was).

The ground attacks were started from 1000-1500m altitude at 450-500 km/h, the dive inclination was 15-30 degrees (any steeper would mean too much acceleration) and the pull-out altitude was given as 50-100m (yes, really that low, makes me wonder) with a final airspeed of 600-790 km/h

Criticism on the periscope: Angle of view too broad, thus unable to spot target from long distances. Distance to target as well as altitude estimation very difficult, a Stuvi (dive bombing bombsight) would serve much better.
There is a long, very technical passage about pendular movements, yaw moments and so on during the high speed dives, which I can't translate right now due to lack of time, however there is nothing of critical importance in there in regard to your basic questions.

The last passage is about fake attacks on a FW 190, but there is no indication about what armament would be like in such a situation. Not surprisingly, the report states the strengths of the Arado being it's very high speed and recommends utilizing shallow climbs and wide turns, as the FW is superior in a dogfight. The Arado should always use it's high speed for surprise attacks.


That's it for now. I can take another look at it after the weekend, I'm gone 'till monday


 

[STEELE]

1) Even if the guns are angled slightly downward while the plane is at rest, it flew with a nose-down attitude (think p51 and fw190) so the guns would be pointed either level or slightly up when flying at speed.
Surely they fired where the periscope looked, otherwise it would make no sense at all to have a periscope (rear facing)
2) If we get too many complaints about the guns option, fine, we'll take the C3 with C3/N 30mil gunpod option (of course it will only carry 1 bomb when gunpods arre carried) to be added instead of updating the AR234
that we have now.   
Problem solved! 

[Debrody]

2) If we get too many complaints about the guns option, fine, we'll take the C3 with C3/N 30mil gunpod option (of course it will only carry 1 bomb when gunpods arre carried) to be added instead of updating the AR234
that we have now.   

^^ that
Btw, awsome info, Lyric

[lyric1]

1) Even if the guns are angled slightly downward while the plane is at rest, it flew with a nose-down attitude (think p51 and fw190) so the guns would be pointed either level or slightly up when flying at speed.
Surely they fired where the periscope looked, otherwise it would make no sense at all to have a periscope (rear facing)
2) If we get too many complaints about the guns option, fine, we'll take the C3 with C3/N 30mil gunpod option (of course it will only carry 1 bomb when gunpods arre carried) to be added instead of updating the AR234
that we have now.  
Problem solved!  

You must not have read all of the posts I have placed on this thread.
The AR-234-B Never not one time none at all did not happen ever ever ever have rear ward facing guns. My first posts were under the assumption that AHII guns were pointed the wrong way they should face down not up.  After further research is when I found that only a handful of C models ever had the rear gun option & that to was dropped because they could not make it work.

In other words our AR-234-B is a fantasy aircraft in it's current configuration.

[lyric1]

^^ that
Btw, awsome info, Lyric

Thank you. How ever Mr Steele has not got all the facts straight that I have posted. So ^^ that wont work sorry.

[Spikes]

In other words our AR-234-B is a fantasy aircraft in it's current configuration.

Only for people who know how to use it.

[lyric1]

Only for people who know how to use it.

So you want an aircraft that did not exist in game? Or do you want the real thing?

[lyric1]

To date I have not found what the view through the periscope actually looks like on an AR-234. How ever I did find some pictures of a 110 that was fitted with a rear view periscope. May be the best clue as to what it could have looked like?

[lyric1]

To date I have not found what the view through the periscope actually looks like on an AR-234. How ever I did find some pictures of a 110 that was fitted with a rear view periscope. May be the best clue as to what it could have looked like?

(Image removed from quote.)



(Image removed from quote.)

After looking at some additional pictures more closely & reading up some more about how the periscope was used. I think that the forward & rear views most likely are just like the above picture of the 110. At least the cross hairs not sure of the square & circle at this point.

First off some info on the types of periscopes the 234 carried.

They carried two types the RF2B was mostly on recon aircraft & only had the rear view & the other was the RF2C as described in the below picture was used for dive bombing so it had a forward & rear view. The rear view was meant to have two functions look for enemy's behind you & when an auto controlled aiming rearward gun was developed this to would be controlled by the pilot via the periscope.

As mentioned in this thread previously no auto gun was developed & only a couple of  C model's were fitted with a fixed rearward & downward facing pair of guns.



Now as far as I can best ascertain the rear view portion would be just like looking through a telescope or a camera lens & with the aid of mirrors & or a lens it would flip the view so the pilot would see exactly what was behind him. This part of the periscope on both types was not electrically powered at all to the best of my knowledge.

Now when you compare the 2B along side the 2C there are some differences that stand out. Number one being the computer controlled dive bombing sight. This has electrical switches as well as a mechanical lever/switch.

This picture is of the 2B it is rather clean looking compared to the 2C. Just a side note it also appears the the periscope could pivot out of the way of the pilot. I assume when it was not needed & most likely when getting in & out of the aircraft so it would not be bumped.

2B


The pilot must not have thought the periscope was enough as he has two mirrors fitted either side of his seat in this 2B sight picture.
2B


2C

2C



Now I have a translation from the pilots manual as to how to use the bomb sites on the AR-234 as shown below.



What is interesting just like with level bombing the yoke was swung out of the way & the computers auto pilot & sight must have had control of the aircraft? Now with the AR-234 at the Smithsonian this particular aircraft was handed over to the British when the squadron surrendered & at the time was a dedicated photo recon bird. So with the photos I have I can not see where the cord that attached the periscope to the bomb site computer.

Have to assume because it was a recon bird no need for bombing & hence no need for cords to attach the periscope to the computer? Or the parts just came up missing for it's restoration?

You can see where it is attached due to the electrical prongs & I would say where the periscope got it's power from. I can not see the attachment point on the bomb sight though.



The above picture that has some writing on the scope that has <-HAND  BZA-> BZA was the computer/sighting method used for dive bombing I believe this is the lever/mechanical device that would flip the view from the front to the rear. Here is a few pictures that show a round bit of metal attached that I would say the pilot would grab to pivot it forward & back.







There is two electrical switches on the left side of the periscope & I would guess one is for turning on the forward periscope & a switch for the computer? Can't find anything yet that shows exactly what switch did what so if any one can offer a better answer I would like to hear your thoughts.

So enough education on the periscope & now too why I believe this photo is most likely what the view through both sights most likely looked like.



On the 2B sight we have what looks like two knobs mounted on the eye piece. What are those for I wondered?



Has the 2C eye piece have the same two Knobs? Well no in fact it has four? Why four?



Then it became clear to me what those knobs are for. Take just about any scope from a gun today & they have the same type of set up. They are used for sighting in a gun. One knob for adjusting the vertical line & one for the horizontal. These knobs are for calibrating the cross hairs for bombing & if they ever did have rear guns fitted it would be used for shooting on the AR-234.



So the reason there is four knobs or adjustment points is because we have two separate sights mounted in a single unit on the 2C & each would need two cross hairs for an aiming point.

I think my logic is sound on this topic even though I still don't have all the facts yet. Any one who can come up with alternatives would love to hear from you.

A few more documents I found that ties in with bombing on the AR-234.