ar234 question

[MiloMorai]

All very interesting Bab, thanks, but they are not the load plan.

[lyric1]

If there was any doubt I think the question of rear facing guns is put to bed with this interview with Willi Kreissmann.

His job was to ferry the Ar-234 from the factory to the sub contractors who installed optical equipment, bombing equipment, etc.

He flew the AR-234 that is at the Smithsonian.

http://www.evanflys.com/willi_kriessmann

[Babalonian]

All very interesting Bab, thanks, but they are not the load plan.

Still I can't find anything, and I spent another hour last night, you'd think this information would be more available.  Were they called something else maybe back then?

[lyric1]

Some info the Smithsonian had on file in regards to bombing.







Interesting that the control yoke is disconnected on dive bombing as well as horizontal.

Have to wonder why? 

[Karnak]

Didn't it have an automatic pull out feature?

[lyric1]

Didn't it have an automatic pull out feature?

Yes.

[FLS]

Nice info Lyric. According to Jeff Ethel and Alfred Price's book German Jets in Combat none of the reconnaissance a/c and most of the bombers did not have the rear cannon mounted. Some later production models, which is what we have in AH, did have the 20mm cannon and they were mounted to fire out 12 degrees in line with the flight path which when you think about it is the most sensible vertical angle for a fixed gun. They appear to be mounted down because the fuselage is angled up at that point. The night fighters were ad hoc but not considered experimental they just didn't build many, the firepower was considered too weak to make it feasible. The high alt level bombing was the most interesting bombing technique due to the bomb sight controlled auto pilot but the shallow dive bomb run was  used most often.

[lyric1]

Nice info Lyric. According to Jeff Ethel and Alfred Price's book German Jets in Combat none of the reconnaissance a/c and most of the bombers did not have the rear cannon mounted. Some later production models, which is what we have in AH, did have the 20mm cannon and they were mounted to fire out 12 degrees in line with the flight path which when you think about it is the most sensible vertical angle for a fixed gun. They appear to be mounted down because the fuselage is angled up at that point. The night fighters were ad hoc but not considered experimental they just didn't build many, the firepower was considered too weak to make it feasible. The high alt level bombing was the most interesting bombing technique due to the bomb sight controlled auto pilot but the shallow dive bomb run was  used most often.

Never seen that book before I just ordered it.

Since it was published back in 1979 I tend to think like most of the books from that era it may be dated information compared to the information the newer publishers have since found out.

I think the later model they are talking about is the C model not the B.

 

[FLS]

Never seen that book before I just ordered it.

Since it was published back in 1979 I tend to think like most of the books from that era it may be dated information compared to the information the newer publishers have since found out.

I think the later model they are talking about is the C model not the B.

Your google book link states that the second production B model had the rear guns. Alfred Price was an RAF officer who's job was to interrogate German pilots after the war about German aircraft.  He probably had pretty good information. Jeff Ethel was a friend of my dad's so I'm lucky to have an autographed copy of that book as well as his Me263 book which is signed by Jeff and Rudi Opitz, another of my dad's friends.

[lyric1]

Your google book link states that the second production B model had the rear guns. Alfred Price was an RAF officer who's job was to interrogate German pilots after the war about German aircraft.  He probably had pretty good information. Jeff Ethel was a friend of my dad's so I'm lucky to have an autographed copy of that book as well as his Me263 book which is signed by Jeff and Rudi Opitz, another of my dad's friends.

The reason I posted that book link was to talk about the bomb sites & how they may have worked.

That book was a paper back published first in 1988.

So the information is still dated compared to newer books that contradict it.

Here is a link from a pilot who flew many of the bomber versions of the AR-234B the only model that would have had space for the rear guns.

http://www.evanflys.com/willi_kriessmann

He says no weapons.

[FLS]

He's just saying the a/c he flew had no rear guns which was true for most of them.

We have a well respected WW2 aircraft historian Alfred Price, your google book Blitz, I assume also Pyro, and the Arado factory saying they did have them.
I think the confusion stems from the fact that most of the 234B bombers did not have them.

[lyric1]

He's just saying the a/c he flew had no rear guns which was true for most of them.

We have a well respected WW2 aircraft historian Alfred Price, your google book Blitz, I assume also Pyro, and the Arado factory saying they did have them.
I think the confusion stems from the fact that most of the 234B bombers did not have them.

The Authors on that book are very well respected historians on aviation no question. Based off of the information they had in hand at the time they would have come to that conclusion.

Things have changed since 1979 in regards to what is known now.

As far as Arado's take on it you can read the documents I posted from Arado in this thread.

http://www.4shared.com/office/yJjgC6-w/ARADO_AR_234_DER_ERSTE_STRAHLB.html

As far as Pyro & AHII are concerned only time will tell on that point.

We will have to agree to disagree.

[FLS]

You say 1979 but Price's job in 1945 was getting this information. I think he had better access to more people and information than is available now.
If you have evidence and you say it must be wrong because it doesn't fit the theory then your theory may be wrong. It also makes sense that some B models would have the guns prior to the decision that all the C models would have them.

We can at least agree that most of the 234s did not have the guns. 

[MiloMorai]

Do you have hard data that some B models had rear firing guns FLS?

[lyric1]

We can at least agree that most of the 234s did not have the guns. 

We don't agree at all.

You are drawing information from one source.
I on the other hand am drawing from 13 books & A German CD & a number of other sources.
Tell you what since I am waiting for the book to arrive that you have now so I can compare it to all the others I have.

Get your self this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Monogram-Monarch-Arado-234-Blitz/dp/0914144510

Then do a side by side comparison of the book you have in hand.
Read the section about the first bomber units & what they did & did not have on their planes.
Read the pilots statements about missions they flew in that first bomber squadron as well as the subsequent bomber squadrons. Read what they did & did not have on their aircraft.

When your done reading & comparing see what you think then.

When I started on this thread that I have hijacked I had no doubt that rear guns were on the the Arado's.

Based off the preponderance of the evidence I had to change my mind.

Only an OJ Simpson jury would not.