P63

[Mystery]

Regarding the P-63 vs. the Luftwaffe:

"The last fighter provided to the Soviet Union in significant quantity was the P-63A/C Kingcobra, 2421 of which were supplied from June 1944 – 2400 arrived via the AlSib Trace. Much mythology surrounds the combat careers of these aircraft. The fact that the sheer length of the AlSib [Poster: Alaska-Siberia]Trace, the short daylight hours in the north, and its tendency to attract poor flying weather, all conspired against the P-63 to the point where very few aircraft had arrived at the front in time to see actions against the Germans prior to V-E day."

Some 36 P-63s hand indeed been delivered to Pokryshkin's 9 GIAD in early May 1945, but with the division engaged in the final battle around Berlin and the Luftwaffe already beaten, units were too busy flying ground support and blockade missions to undertake conversion onto a new fighter. The P-63's were duly parked until after the final surrender. Regiments within 5 GIAD, which had also began to receive P-63s at the same time, did exactly the same thing."

"Soviet Lend-Lease Fighter Aces of World War 2", George Mellinger, 2006 Osprey Publishing

Now, is it possible that a few zealous fighter-pilot types took their new birds up? Sure. But proven and documented? No.
The primary (only?) justification for inclusion of the P-63 is their use by the Soviets in their short-lived war with Japan, "Operation August Storm".

[AWwrgwy]

The case for the P-63 in Aces High


AP ammo might make it a good tank buster, but the game would employ Russian designation P-63s and they were not issues AP rounds [ref 6]

[ref6. Attack of the Airacobras, Dimity Loza p. needed]

Don't know where this came from. It is actually referencing P-39s late in the war in a chapter titled "The Airacobra as Shturmovik"

The only reference to the P-63 in the above book is pp 317-318 of the same chapter:

Regiments of the 9th Guards Fighter Division played an active role in the destruction of these encircled German forces from 26 April to 8 May. The division had 102 Airacobras on hand at the end of April, of which eighty-eight were serviceable and fourteen were unserviceable. Of the 103 assigned pilots, 91 were in units and considered combat-ready; 6 were deemed not combat-ready. A total of twenty-nine P-63 Kingcobra aircraft had arrived in the division during the month of April, received from the 6th Reserve Aviation Brigade. In addition, one P-39 had returned from a major repair shop. The 16th and 100th Guards Regiments were based at Neuhausen airfield and the 104th Guards Regiment at Yuterbog.

No mention of actual use is made. Of course, it is a book about the P-39 use, not the P-63.


wrongway

[Guppy35]

George Mellinger is a local guy who I got to know a little bit through the Twin Cities Aero Historians.  I think I still have his number around here somewhere.  He's an absolute Russian AF junkie.  I'll see if I can get a hold of him and try and get his thoughts on the 63 and it's Soviet use or non use.

[Bronk]

The sole aerial kill credited to a P-63 occurred on August 15, 1945, the last day of WWII.  The 17th IAP was operating out of Mongolia, and two of its pilots, Capt. Viacheslav Sirotin, (left) a Hero of the Soviet Union and 21-victory ace, and his wingman, Jr. Lt. Miroshnichenko, caught two Japanese fighters, either Ki-27 Nates or Ki-43 Oscars, and shot one down.   It is unclear who was credited with the kill.

google it.

Ohh and this in no way means I want p-63 included  any time soon. It is way down the list, last in fact. Early war Japanese AC would be much welcomed.

[Dahl]

You guys will run out of late or post war American aircraft to demand eventually you know.  It might behoove you to learn about some other country's aircraft and request those.

Well stated,Sir. Case in point: why to this day do we not have the JU-52? If ya want 'boots on the ground' Annie is the answer.
By the way,if only the  -61 had some +'s painted on it, I'd fly that puppy in a heartbeat. 
 

[Vinkman]

Vink, how much of a difference in performance do you think the 63 would have over the 39Q.    I don't think there is any doubt that the 63's achilles heel was the range problem.  It couldn't compete with the 51.  I remember Widewing talking about possible use on the Eastern Front.  At that same time, Kinda like wanting my Spitfire XII and needing it, the 63 is one for me that would be nice someday, but nowhere near a priority.  When I get that Cobra mood going, the 39s seem to fill the bill nicely

I like the P-39 quite a bit. Firing the big gun is a really fun challenge when dog fighting. I also like the forward cockpit/rearward wing for the forward-down view. But the P-39 is not very competitive in late war because of two things. It's under powered so it's top speed is one of the slowest in the game, So you can't catch anything, and you can't extend.  The low power also leads to it's acceleration being poor. So once you get slow. Also with high wing loading, the plane does not turn well at slow speeds, so when you get slow, you're toast. The P-63 C model with Water injection made 1800hp. That 500hp and 38% more than the P-39Q.  The weight increase for a P-63 was 10-20% depending on gun package. (I'd have to go look it back up). One listing has the top speed at 427mph. The wing loading on the P-63 was significantly lower and [according to Mathews book, which quote the army test reports] could out turn the P-38, pony, and 47.....at what speeds etc, was not published.

I think the top speed and alt increase [41,000 ft ceiling thanks to two stage supercharging], would make this thing a great bomber hunter and dog fighter at alts above 15K. Unless you start high, you can't catch Lancs, B-29s, or B-24 in a P-39 if they're 20K or higher.

On the deck the big increase in power and decrease in Turn circle would make it much more formidible than the P-39. With 4 .50cals and the 37mm, this thing is never going to be a perk plane. That gun package it not effective enough in dog fighting when compared to the 4 20mm packages, and it's climb, acceleration, and top speed don't justify a perk either. The rearward visibility is worse than the P-39.

I think it has significant enough increase in performance, both turning and top speed, to make it competitive against the late war birds. Somewhere between a Yak-T9 and a K4.
I don't think it's a game changer, just a better late war version of the P-39 which was obsolete by 1941.

[Vinkman]

I haven't been able to find anything that indicates the P-63 did see any enemy action of any type.  Only thing I've found makes it comparable to planes like the Tigercat or P-51H, in the area but nobody was home to play.

ack-ack

Ack,
In Pokryshkin's menmior he lists eastern front squadren strength and plane types that were active in combat during 1944 and 1945. I'll copy the page from the book and post it. It shows P-63 in those squadrens. I think this is a good place to start digging. I'm tryin gto loacte the co-authors who helped write and publish the book to see if we can get any details about the P-63 use. The book is "Attack of the airacobras" by Dimitiy F Loza

[AWwrgwy]

Ack,
In Pokryshkin's menmior he lists eastern front squadren strength and plane types that were active in combat during 1944 and 1945. I'll copy the page from the book and post it. It shows P-63 in those squadrens. I think this is a good place to start digging. I'm tryin gto loacte the co-authors who helped write and publish the book to see if we can get any details about the P-63 use. The book is "Attack of the airacobras" by Dimitiy F Loza

See above, my previous post.


wrongway

[Vinkman]

Well stated,Sir. Case in point: why to this day do we not have the JU-52? If ya want 'boots on the ground' Annie is the answer.
By the way,if only the  -61 had some +'s painted on it, I'd fly that puppy in a heartbeat. 
 

I think most are fighter folks. As for me, The subtle differences in Fighters provide lots of differences when dog fighting because the planes performance and weaponry are pushed to the limit. Bombers? If I'm flying B-17, or B-24s, or Lancs, its all very similar except the payload. vast majority of fighters will catch you, you will fire the same way from same gun positions to defend. Bomber guys will probably tell a different story, but for me the experience of flying the big bombers is the same from one to the next. 110s, mossies, A-20, are different because they can mix it up. But every fighter provides significant variety that it's slight difference on paper might seemingly under represent. 

[Mystery]

George Mellinger is a local guy who I got to know a little bit through the Twin Cities Aero Historians.  I think I still have his number around here somewhere.  He's an absolute Russian AF junkie.  I'll see if I can get a hold of him and try and get his thoughts on the 63 and it's Soviet use or non use.

Guppy, I'm green with envy. George Mellinger has the best documented and reasoned writings on Russian aircraft I've ever read. So, yes please if you could get a thought or two it would be most welcome. He should have a thought or 20 on the Kuriles island campaign and the use of P-63's. I would be particularly interested in his opinion on the historica use of the P-63 in either CAS or against targets of opportunity - trucks, troop columns, etc in this campaign.

[Vinkman]

George Mellinger is a local guy who I got to know a little bit through the Twin Cities Aero Historians.  I think I still have his number around here somewhere.  He's an absolute Russian AF junkie.  I'll see if I can get a hold of him and try and get his thoughts on the 63 and it's Soviet use or non use.

Guppy that would be great. Good luck 

[ariansworld]

Hear anything Guppy?

[Guppy35]

The Twin Cities Aero Historians meeting is next weekend and I'm going to be able to attend so I'm hoping to find him there.  If I hear something sooner, I'll post it.

[oboe]

Count me as a P-63A proponent too.   My love affair with the '39 has been getting deeper but more frustrating lately.   Bell's approach is just a very interesting layout for a fighter and the King is just bigger, meaner, and faster.  It was that bright orange racer pic that pushed me over the edge, Dan!  (As well as seeing the 63's performance numbers).   

I did a little Googling myself and found another version of the same P-63 kill at http://www.soviethammer.info/blog/521642-the-bells-of-the-kremlin/:

The 12th Air Army of the Trasnbaikal Front equipped its 245 IAD, consisting of the 940 and 781 IAPS. This Air Army was reinforced after the German surrender by the transfer from the west of the 190 IAD which included the 17 IAP and 21 IAP, both of which replaced their P-39Q and La-5 fighters with the Kingcobra. One of the pilots of the 17 IAP was Captain Viacheslav Sirotin, HSU, a 21 victory ace. On August 15, he and his wingman, Junior Lieutenant Miroshnichenko caught 2 Japanese fighters (either Ki-27 or Ki-43, the records are unclear), and shot down one of them. This was the Kingcobra's only aerial victory - ever.

It appears to me also that the Kingcobra qualifies for inclusion under the current guidelines.  Unfortunate that it never saw combat in AAF colors, but it would make a nice addition to the VVS' stable of fighters.  And as a Cobra lover I'd love to get a chance someday to try this bird out in the MA.

[Vinkman]

Don't know where this came from. It is actually referencing P-39s late in the war in a chapter titled "The Airacobra as Shturmovik"

The only reference to the P-63 in the above book is pp 317-318 of the same chapter:

No mention of actual use is made. Of course, it is a book about the P-39 use, not the P-63.


wrongway

Just saw this sorry. Yes it was referenceing P-39. Put the point was made in the book that the planes were never used as tank busters, which is a myth the author went out of his way to dispell in the very beginning of the book. He sights the fact the the Russians were not issued AP rounds for the 37mm cannon for the duration of the war. The gun in the P-63 is listed as an M-10 cannon, but everything I've read suggests teh only difference was Ammo load [58 vs 30 rounds]. The ammunition was the same. So I don't think P-63 was used to bust tanks either.