Author Topic: Flap spins are a thing of the past....  (Read 3690 times)

Offline MarineUS

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2011, 07:20:21 PM »
That's a given. More knowledge ='s a better pilot.

This still doesn't have anything to do with skill, that's knowledge. These guys were learning on the fly. That's a lot different than having someone who got to sit in a classroom for years studying it.
Like, ya know, when that thing that makes you move, it has pistons and things, When your thingamajigy is providing power, you do not hear other peoples thingamajig when they are providing power.

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Offline Motherland

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2011, 07:47:34 PM »
I have a feeling that managing all of those flight and weapons systems takes more than a little bit of skill.

Offline Flipperk

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2011, 10:11:53 PM »
That's a given. More knowledge ='s a better pilot.

This still doesn't have anything to do with skill, that's knowledge. These guys were learning on the fly. That's a lot different than having someone who got to sit in a classroom for years studying it.

Method of learning does not matter in terms of skill, the fact that they learned is the important piece of the puzzle. Sucks that WWII pilots had to learn on the fly, that does not automatically make them a better skilled class of airmen.
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Offline ink

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2011, 11:32:11 PM »
im actually gonna have to agree with Marine on this one :headscratch:

I personally think if you could transplant a modern ACE into WW2 and he fought a WW2 ACE the WW2 ace would smoke him.

oh ya a modern ACE goes through rigorous training and are very skilled, no doubt they could fly the planes but they are trained to fly a Jet that shoots missiles, there is no "dogfighting" today, I would put my money on the WW2 ACE.  especially if he was German :aok

Offline MarineUS

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2011, 11:44:49 PM »
im actually gonna have to agree with Marine on this one :headscratch:

I personally think if you could transplant a modern ACE into WW2 and he fought a WW2 ACE the WW2 ace would smoke him.

oh ya a modern ACE goes through rigorous training and are very skilled, no doubt they could fly the planes but they are trained to fly a Jet that shoots missiles, there is no "dogfighting" today, I would put my money on the WW2 ACE.  especially if he was German :aok
Exactly. There is a difference in knowing how to do it and actually being able to do it.

Just like I know how to run 20 miles - but I can't do it in one go, but there are some that can.
Experience beats a book any day of the week. Ask any VETERAN of ANY branch.

Learning computers is much easier than knowing when to do all of the other things manually. It leads to much better awareness. Every pilot has good SA - or should - but I mean come on.
Like, ya know, when that thing that makes you move, it has pistons and things, When your thingamajigy is providing power, you do not hear other peoples thingamajig when they are providing power.

HiTech

Offline Melvin

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2011, 08:54:36 AM »
im actually gonna have to agree with Marine on this one :headscratch:

I personally think if you could transplant a modern ACE into WW2 and he fought a WW2 ACE the WW2 ace would smoke him.

oh ya a modern ACE goes through rigorous training and are very skilled, no doubt they could fly the planes but they are trained to fly a Jet that shoots missiles, there is no "dogfighting" today, I would put my money on the WW2 ACE.  especially if he was German :aok

OK, by that token, let's take a WWII ace (German if you must) and put him in an F22. I'm guessing he couldn't get it off the ground. If he did manage to get airborne, he'd probably shat his pants as it passed the sound barrier. Then, make him engage another F22 flown by a modern pilot. The WWII guy would be dead in 1-2 turns. Guaranteed.

As far as not learning to dogfight anymore, that is ludicrous.



I guess they just carry this thing around so that they can look cool huh?  :headscratch:

That missiles only crap was found to be useless in the Vietnam era.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 08:59:52 AM by Melvin »
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2011, 12:04:12 PM »
Interesting...  But, maybe an apples/oranges comparison?

Really, both pilots were plenty busy, and had/have plenty on their minds.  If either was placed in the others element I think it'd cause enough confusion to skew the fight.

Something as simple as navigation probably doesn't translate well...  The modern guy forced to navigate as they did in WWII would probably be out of his element.

In order to lesser the effect, I think you'd have to allow a time-frame for either pilot to acclimate to the new equipment.  If the WWII guy was tossed into a modern plane for a few months (or vice versa) would there still be such a large discrepancy?

I'm pretty familiar with how to drive to work, but if I had to do it on a horse-drawn cart I bet I'd look pretty uncomfortable for a while.  But then again, with a little time and practice...  Same goes for the Pony Express rider tossed onto a Harley...

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Offline ink

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2011, 02:27:08 PM »
OK, by that token, let's take a WWII ace (German if you must) and put him in an F22. I'm guessing he couldn't get it off the ground. If he did manage to get airborne, he'd probably shat his pants as it passed the sound barrier. Then, make him engage another F22 flown by a modern pilot. The WWII guy would be dead in 1-2 turns. Guaranteed.

As far as not learning to dogfight anymore, that is ludicrous.

(Image removed from quote.)

I guess they just carry this thing around so that they can look cool huh?  :headscratch:

That missiles only crap was found to be useless in the Vietnam era.


that's exactly why they carry that thing around to look damn good :D    seriously as far as I know and have read they Train in "dogfighting" that takes a back seat to everything else they have to learn, were as the WW2 guy that's the meat of his training.

and I would agree the WW2 pilot would not be able to fly the modern jets very easily, Ill even go so far as to say it would be harder for the WW2 guy to adapt to Jets then the other way around. 

Offline Penguin

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2011, 02:57:13 PM »

that's exactly why they carry that thing around to look damn good :D    seriously as far as I know and have read they Train in "dogfighting" that takes a back seat to everything else they have to learn, were as the WW2 guy that's the meat of his training.

and I would agree the WW2 pilot would not be able to fly the modern jets very easily, Ill even go so far as to say it would be harder for the WW2 guy to adapt to Jets then the other way around. 

Perhaps eagl would have something to say here.  I'll call him over.

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Offline curry1

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2011, 03:07:36 PM »
Interesting...  But, maybe an apples/oranges comparison?

Really, both pilots were plenty busy, and had/have plenty on their minds.  If either was placed in the others element I think it'd cause enough confusion to skew the fight.

Something as simple as navigation probably doesn't translate well...  The modern guy forced to navigate as they did in WWII would probably be out of his element.

In order to lesser the effect, I think you'd have to allow a time-frame for either pilot to acclimate to the new equipment.  If the WWII guy was tossed into a modern plane for a few months (or vice versa) would there still be such a large discrepancy?

I'm pretty familiar with how to drive to work, but if I had to do it on a horse-drawn cart I bet I'd look pretty uncomfortable for a while.  But then again, with a little time and practice...  Same goes for the Pony Express rider tossed onto a Harley...



Modern Pilots all learn how to navigate without GPS you have to remember that we haven't had GPS technology for very long relatively.  I believe the first GPS satellite went up in 1989 or 1990 and we didn't have GPS over the entire world till a few years later.
Navigators before GPS they still used this bad boy...



Oh yeah that is a sextant in a KC-135.
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Offline Melvin

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2011, 03:27:29 PM »
Modern jet fighterz r teh EZ modez!

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Offline eagl

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2011, 12:58:02 PM »
Two points.

1.  The selection pool is smaller, but the graduate numbers are very small, compared to WWII.  In short, the small numbers of graduates we have ensures that even our worst graduate that gets to fighters nowadays is already very near the top of natural flying abilities.  He's had to prove an ability to fly and think in 4 dimensions, as well as manage the systems of a modern jet aircraft.  The focus in some areas is admittedly different (we provide more training pre-solo than the typical WWII pilot got, for example) but the mishap rate for students is extremely low and we don't train for things that used to be important but are no longer relevant.  For another example, we don't spend much time training for needle and ball only instrument flight.  The current thinking is that all aircraft now have at least 2 independent attitude reference systems, and if they both fail while in the weather, it's just not your day and you may as well eject, because the occurence rate of dual attitude reference system failure in the weather is vanishingly small and doesn't justify more training than an introduction in the simulator on how it can be done but it sucks so you'll probably never do it for real anyhow.

2.  It is a myth that the modern fighter pilot is deficient in close-in dogfighting skills and training.  In fact, the reality is that BFM has been picked apart into a science.  The development of the E/M diagram and close examination of the physics and geometry involved in a BFM fight means that a modern day fighter pilot is far more likely to pick an optimum tactic against any particular opponent the FIRST TIME he ever meets that opponent in combat.  If you read books written by WWI and WWII pilots, you find a lot of word of mouth truisms, but not a lot of specifics on why things work.  Huge example, R. Johnson's book "thunderbolt".  In one passage, he describes what appears to be a lag roll and offset turn-circle to "surprise" a german pilot into thinking that the P-47 had just turned tighter than he did.  Johnson can't describe exactly what he did, and at the time it was word of mouth that a P47 with it's boosted ailerons could roll a heck of a lot faster than some of the german fighters, so that roll rate was used to advantage.  But for me, having gone through extensive academic and flying training on BFM, even with me being just an F-15E pilot not nearly as focused on BFM as F-15C or F-16 pilots, I know exactly what he did and why it worked, even if he can't describe it.

Now I can teach stuff in primary flight training that a WWII pilot had to learn through trial and error.  I can prove on paper why it's a dumb idea for a P-47 to do a flat turn with a 109, and because of the foundation in 4 dimensional flying provided in pilot training, I can tell a new fighter pilot exactly how to win EVERY TIME he takes a p-47 up against a 109 including the very first time, because the physics and tactics are proven and teachable.

Of course there are exceptions, as Bob Hoover and Chuck Yeager found out.  Hoover could do things with a plane that most people thought was impossible, because he instinctively understood the physics and aerodynamics involved and could apply them to any plane he flew, on the first flight, with minimal instruction.  So nobody is going to out-fly Hoover.  But as he found out, a guy who is a good shot might blow him out of the sky before the merge...  So there are always exceptions.  But I would guess that on average, the average USAF fighter-bound pilot training graduate has been screened and trained to a higher overall skill level than the majority of new fighter pilots in WWII because of the natural evolution of pilot training methods, and the average operational fighter pilot is at least the match of most WWII fighter pilots in terms of pure BFM skills because we've distilled down the science to give each fighter pilot an advantage of tactic selection before he even gets to the merge.  As an F-15E pilot, I know damn well I should never try to outrun a Mig-23.  But I can turn with him no problem, so I can take him single or double circle and I get the first shot 99% of the time post-merge.  With a mig-21, I might have an on-paper E/M advantage but the mig-21 has good low speed handling due to the delta wing so don't get into a low speed scissors or he just might get lucky and gun me stupid, so I should pick something else to do that takes advantage of my modern avionics and missiles, and the mig's poor rearward visibility.

I know that before I get to the merge, the first combat I ever see.  And there is nothing "wrong" with my ability to maneuver in 4 dimensions, and I am physically conditioned to fly an extended period of time at 6 to 7 Gs without a G-suit, and up to 9 Gs with a G-suit, so without seeing one second of actual air to air combat, I have an edge that almost no WWII pilots with my zero hours of air combat time could match.  Not only that, I have an  education on aerospace physiology that was simply unknown except as vague rules of thumb back in the 1940s, which can make me more effective and less likely to suffer injuries over the long run.

Imagine an old-school barefist boxer going up against a modern MMA fighter...  That bare knuckle fighter has probably been fighting his whole life without the benefit of modern training and medicine, so he's a total hard case and undoubtedly a good fighter.  And it's very likely that one of those skinny Gracie brothers would bust him up in minutes, breaking every joint and bone in his body if he didn't give up.  It's an evolution of the sport, and modern fighter pilots have the benefit of almost 100 years of fighter aviation history guiding their training.  It's an unfair advantage no matter how well a WWII pilot might have flown his needle and ball instrument approaches, listening to the "dah" signal in his left ear and the "dit" signals in the right ear...

I will say one thing however...  Aviation pioneers did have a significant advantage in their ability to think outside the box, using their knowledge to get things done in tight situations.  Nowadays, the drawback to everything being a science is that the art of making things up as you go is nearly lost.  As an example, I had a chance to talk to one of the P-40 "Burma Banshee" pilots a couple of years ago, and he explained his "instrument approach" procedure, that worked for up to a 4-ship formation.  When the weather was as low as 100' ceilings but with tops no more than 14,000 ft, he would follow this procedure.  Use basic navigation and radio homing to fly to a certain mountain peak.  Cross the peak at a specific altitude and wind-corrected heading and airspeed.  Count 30 seconds, then start a 2000 ft per minute descent straight ahead.  Watch the altimeter (calibrated by flying past mountain peaks with known altituded).   No lower than 500', you should break out over a wide river valley (with 10,000 ft mtns on both sides) near enough the river to fly up the river just below the clouds.  After a sharp right turn where your wingman can shift from fingertip into trail formation, there is a sandbar in the middle of the river with a C-47 parked on it because the guy ran out of fuel and landed on a sand bar that was long enough to stop but not long enough to take off.  After the C-47 in the river, you pass one narrow stream on the left and then you see a tree.  Put gear and flaps down, climb up and turn hard left over the tree, and as you pass over the tree, chop the throttle to idle and flare because you're already over the short 3000' runway.

That sort of stuff isn't taught anymore because half of the WWII guys got smart doing that sort of thing, and the other half died trying.  Nowadays, you do it the standard way and if that doesn't work we have very good ejection seats instead of hoping we don't kill ourselves inventing new stuff on the fly.
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Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2011, 01:07:53 PM »
Marine has his opinion about how he sees it from his eyes. You can't & should try to convince him he's wrong. If we asked some of the old fighters what they think about it, I'm sure the answers would be very interesting.  :salute
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Offline MarineUS

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2011, 01:10:07 PM »

Planes rarely dogfight anymore so bringing it up is -ALMOST- pointless.

Yes the guy from the era before computers would not know how to get a modern aircraft to start. I didn't say anything about that. That's not even a possible comparison.
It's like getting a cowboy from way back when and dropping him into an F1.......

less and less skill needed the more electronic we get.

Like I said, today's pilots are talented, but they NEED - not HAVE - less and less skill to do the maneuvers.
They NEED less skill to do these things because a computer does it for them. I didn't say they don't HAVE the skill.

But we all know an experienced WWII German Ace would eat a modern pilot up.  :aok
^Said out of spite.  :devil
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 01:14:07 PM by MarineUS »
Like, ya know, when that thing that makes you move, it has pistons and things, When your thingamajigy is providing power, you do not hear other peoples thingamajig when they are providing power.

HiTech

Offline Tac

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Re: Flap spins are a thing of the past....
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2011, 01:59:30 PM »
I don't see what the argument really is here.

Both WW2 era and modern day pilots have to deal with the same physics of flight. The ww2 pilots flew mostly mechanical control planes while the modern day pilots have electronics and hydraulics ... there is a big difference in thrust and aerodynamic shape of the planes... but all in all, both planes can stall, both planes can spin, both deal with friction and gravity.

If anything the modern pilot has extra workload because of the avionics... in WW2 a plane that would have the same capabilities a modern plane has now would require a 3 man crew: Pilot, radar+radio operator/navigator and bombardier/countermeasures. Electronics allow the one pilot to be all three and yes, the electronics do most of the work on those areas but the pilot still has to push a button to tell the machine to do it and THEN keep track of all that information that flows in...and he must be able to do it all while flying and fighting.

There's one thing I'd love to know... maybe Eagl can answer this one... why in the world do air forces today cram all that stuff into one aircraft? I mean, doing so increases the cost per plane, pilot training, plane maintenance and pilot workload and keep your airforce small.

Why is it better than having an air force that has A/C that are absolutely dedicated to one role? Aka one plane designed for air superiority (not bombing,etc), one for strategic bombing, one for air support, one for tactical bombing etc etc. RL examples would be F-14 for air superiority, A-10 for air support, B-52 for strategic bombing and the B-2 spirit for tactical bombing.

I think that its better to have a lot of dedicated mission planes that are very effective in their role flying rather than a small pool of extremely expensive multi-role aircraft being flown by a small, overworked/overtrained pool of pilots.  :headscratch:

though i'm far more in favor of the Air Force having a small pool of pilots and a HUGE M'Fing SWARM of drone a/c piloted by people stateside XD
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 02:03:06 PM by Tac »