Author Topic: Help with air to air combat  (Read 4233 times)

Offline BnZs

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Re: Help with air to air combat
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2011, 01:33:49 AM »
Like a lot of new players, I am getting shot down regularly. I fly the P38L, and would like to stick to it rather than chasing the "win button" plane, if such a thing exists. Anyway I have a couple of questions:

1) What's the best way to improve your dogfighting skills? Practicing in the arena is the obvious choice, but flying for 15 mins just to get shot down as soon as you reach the flight is a very time consuming and frustrating way of going about it, especially since you get no feedback of what you did wrong.

2) Often I will be in the situation where the other aircraft has an alt advantage over me. Usually we will be heading towards each other, just the other guy is 2k above me or thereabouts. 99% of the time, the enemy plane with fly over me, then pull a split S to come down on my tail. Now basically there are 3 moves I might try in this situation: a) split S, b) immelman, or c) flat turn. However, no matter which move I pull, the enemy always ends up on my tail and I end up dead. Are there any tips for this situation? I am considering just running from any higher alt enemy fighters in future.


Er, that's it for now I guess. But any tips for improving would be gratefully received.  :salute

d) Time a pull up so that he overshoots below you...an exchange of positions. Reversing an E advantage expeditiously is based on the principle of making him go nose down to the take the shot and ending up above him as many times as is nessecary for things to finally equal out.

Bandit barreling down on you:
Believe it or not, the more overtake he has on you, the easier your job is, and vis versa. The major defensive trick is to initiate a break turn at the right time, usually at least somewhat obliquely downwards. Try to get 90 degrees when he comes into firing range. If he pulls up and you don't have the speed to follow him up (you probably don't-yet), go on a path away from him. You can go straight and level, dive, or climb at high speed, depending your energy state. Try to stay at maneuvering speed. If he is tracking you for a shot, poing your wingtip at him, giving a narrow profile, and go up or down, depending on E level. The "out of plane jink" part as it is called will spoil most peoples shots, and if have the airspeed to jink with a pull up, he overshoots beneath, and you've done the reversing positions thing which will help cut down his speed overhead.

The P-38 is a pretty decent plane, and I would not discourage a new person from flying it. It seems worse than it is in a dogfight for two reasons: One, its planform makes a big target. Two, hordes of late-model Spits that do everything better and are very easy to fly. Okay, let me add a caveat: A plane with the P-38's speed, climb, turn and roll numbers would be a POS if it were single engined. However, the P-38 is NOT single engined. It has no net torque, so balls to the wall, almost no airspeed? No problem. Outstanding with the nose up, single engine jobs will run up against torque and flip over trying to pull the same maneuvers. The P-38 requires extensive flapwork to get the best out of it.

I'm going to disagree strongly with Agent here. I think turn performance is the easiest to use attribute in ACM and big stunter of a player's development in using geometry to gain the shot, rather than simply holding the stick back and listening to the stall horn until the bandit's tail is waxed. Pretty much a personal choice about how you use speed. You can use it to HO and go...or you can use it catch stuff and force fights, and disengage from the umpteen vs. you situations from which you will learn nothing except how lamely some people will strive to earn 1/10th of a kill. The P-51D would be an ideal primary trainer if its turning attributes were a little better...quite possibly it still is, because you can find other P-51s, Jugs, Typhoons, 190s, and other poor turners to fight. I may be burned at the stake for this, but I'm going to toss out the La-7...its a good but not uberturner, and it is fast enough to catch up and force a fight with just about anything. Just don't "Ho and go" in it, please. Its guns will force you to maneuver for the sort of close range, dead-easy shots that should be your bread and butter in any plane.

Oh yeah, one of your most important maneuvers in any plane is going to be chopping throttle and standing on the rudder. That is the only "air brake" most of these planes have. Remember when I said earlier that a bandit barreling down on you fast was easiest to avoid? Well, you are going to want to close to firing range expeditiously, but once you get there you want your closure rate to be reasonable so you have an easier shot. There is alot of talk about conserving your energy, and it has its place, but many times you will be far better off if you saddle up and kill that bandit NOW, before a second one comes in, instead of trying to conserve your energy while fighting the one and ending up fighting two at the same time.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 01:40:06 AM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Puma44

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Re: Help with air to air combat
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2011, 10:29:13 AM »
Learn B F M.  All the great tips offered in this discussion are additive to knowing the basics first.  :salute
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 10:47:46 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline morfiend

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Re: Help with air to air combat
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2011, 11:22:27 AM »
I do not recommend you follow my advice.

I recommend you follow the proven methods stated in this thread.

However, if you would like to take a more unconventional approach then I have a few ideas.

I am serous..this is not a joke post.

Fly a crappy plane such as a ki61, spit 5 or 109f4. These are not necessarily crappy...in fact they are good...what makes them crappy is the top speed. There are other crappy planes...just pick one. A 30 eny plane is crappy enough.

Fly at 8k or less. Try to outsmart them. DO NOT follow a faster plane into a vertical stall. Break off and dive.

Take off from another base...NOT THE ONE that is under attack. Come in at 8k or less with max speed.

Pick a target and go after it.

Fly your plane to a spot that will intersect their flight path....try to ram them in essence...but fire ahead before...and don't actually ram.

DO NOT go head on with any target...roll out and stay fast.

DO NOT get trapped by a hord....egress to friendlies

Maintain your energy...stay at 5k....egress to 5k and come back.

Altitude doesn't matter...SPEED is the key in ANY PLANE.

Everything is a 4 way stop....run over the curb and crash into the other guy.....meaning fire across the yard.

Cut every angle you can....always always always cut the angle off....fly ahead and set your shot.

FIRE ALL YOUR ammo...if you died with ammo then you didn't fire enough.

Forget about landing kills.

Forget about score.

Forget about the gangtards and hotards...you WILL get ganged and hoed..planes are free. FOR GET ABOUT IT.

Don't fly good planes like the spit16, La7, p51, and others like them.

STAY IN A CRAPPY PLANE.....You wont learn jack until you can figure out how to beat a better plane in a crappy plane.

You Will die thousands of times..it is a fact...therefor you mise well get used to that fact. Expect to die on every sortie.

The point is to learn. You will not learn crap if you fly a spit16.

There is more but try this out first.

Good luck.

Agent360
----Bad bad Agent the badest pilot in the whole dam cemetery---









  Actually there's some good advice here so it's worth quoting. :aok


  I had to read it throught 2 or 3 times... :o  ya I'm abit slow... :old:  but Agent speaks volumes if you take the time to actually read it.



    :salute

Offline ink

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Re: Help with air to air combat
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2011, 01:09:34 PM »
.... There is alot of talk about conserving your energy, and it has its place, but many times you will be far better off if you saddle up and kill that bandit NOW, before a second one comes in, instead of trying to conserve your energy while fighting the one and ending up fighting two at the same time.

not to hack your reply...but this is something that I completely disagree with and from my perspective is very wrong.....when I began I was all about "saddling" someone to get my kills, I flew like this for years, until about two years ago when I started flying with Grizz regularly, he showed me the error in my thinking, and since I changed my "tactic" I went from a hit % of 4 to all the way up to 9%(almost over night) and was easily holding a K/D of 2+   the only thing I changed was the way I attacked nme cons, instead of trying to saddle I started cutting their circles and going for crossing shots, it gives you a much larger target.   also conserving E as much as possible. 

my reasoning

 the dead 6 shot is the hardest to make of all the shots.(<----this is uncontested..IE-Fact) its not as easy to saddle someone and kill them "now" as you make it out, while you are trying to saddle someone you will most likely be jumped by his friendlies, if instead you cut off the angles and make crossing shots, which are far easier to make, the bandit will be dead long before you could saddle him, and you will be ready to kill the next con.
if you don't kill him, you will still have the E to get above him and contend with the second con, not be low E from trying to saddle someone.



Offline Puma44

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Re: Help with air to air combat
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2011, 04:21:45 PM »
It all depends on the situation, energy state, SA, and number of bandits to be dealt with. A snap shot or saddling up both work effectively if used properly in conjunction with BFM.  Neither one is better than the other "all the time".    :salute



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Offline Jappa52

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Re: Help with air to air combat
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2011, 02:39:55 PM »
I share the feeling you have for flying the 38L but you going to face big challenges with this aircraft.  That’s not to say you should choose something else but you will really need to work on learning BFM then ACM and use all the strategies and tactics associated to be successful.  When I joined the 82nd (who flew the 38 as their primary ride) one of the first things they did was test your knowledge of basic flight maneuvers and teach or hone your skills because they knew that you needed to be proficient to be successful in the 38.  I’d been learning from Puma for a while beforehand but still learned loads from those guys, they were great.

Best advice I can give would be to practice what has been said in this thread. There is a ton of wonderful information and experience here. Don’t get frustrated, get experienced.  Take a few extra seconds and gain a little more altitude and choose your fights. You have basically chosen the “flying-bait” aircraft and will attract every red guy for sectors and they will give up all advantage and other, easier targets to shoot you down : )

Keep your speed as high as possible, fly it as smooth as possible and nose low, NOSE LOW!!

This is the energy egg, one of the most basic principles. Once you understand this you will have an advatage over those that dont as you will know what manuvers they are capable of doing from their current position. Then you will know where to place yourself to best counter or attack them.



**And cheers to the community, this thread is a wealth of knowledge and shows that AH hasn’t gone FPS yet  :salute
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