the farce has lasted long enough...

[Noir]

It looks like the difference between plane performance and pilot skill is a hard concept to grasp.

[Vinkman]

I agree with those who have said PERKING is about game usage and not about peformance numbers. I don't see that hordes of Spit XVI are making flying anything else futile.

[B3YT]

but Krusty the Spit IXLFe is less stable  in a stall fight  and is prone to  snap rolling . The difference between the spit IX and IXLFe isn't that great when your fighting  in the MA .   Most fights will start with you  where you want to be not on the runway facing each other. 

[Dead Man Flying]

It looks like the difference between plane performance and pilot skill is a hard concept to grasp.

Clearly.  However, if you look here, plane performance between the Spit XVI and Ki-84 is pretty similar at sea level.  The Ki-84 is a bit faster on the deck and the Spit XVI accelerates slightly better.  The Spit climbs better, but only marginally so (about 500 feet/minute more, which isn't a major factor in a dogfight), and they both have nearly identical turning radii with and without flaps.  The Spit XVI is more lethal, but the Ki-84 has more ammo.  So, basically, the two planes match up pretty well with one another.

People fly the Spit XVI because they're used to it and because of its reputation.  It's a great plane.  You perk that, and they're gonna hop in the Ki-84, which will still eat up the Luftwaffe rides and dominate when appearing in the same kinds of numbers the Spit XVI enjoys now.  Why go there other than out of spite because the Spit XVI annoys you?

[Delirium]

Average pilot in the Lightning will force average pilot in the Pony to run or die pretty easily. 38s are a special case as well, because the torquelessness gives them certain advantages over all single engine jobs. So this is just plain (plane) wrong

Since the P51 can easily disengage and later re-engage so he dictates the fight. It takes a bit of trickery to make a P51 bleed enough E where he can't extend away, outside guns range, and most don't fall for it. As the old saying goes, speed dictates the fight if the P51 wants to stay out of harms way, with half a brain he will be able to do so.

[Krusty]

but Krusty the Spit IXLFe is less stable  in a stall fight  and is prone to  snap rolling . The difference between the spit IX and IXLFe isn't that great when your fighting  in the MA .

I couldn't disagree MORE.

I've run across many spit16s and many spit9s in this game. You can fight a spit9. It doesn't have the horsepower to go up as much in verticals and the instantaneous turn and roll is not nearly as sharp as the spit16. The spit16 doesn't drop wings much at all IMO. Calling it prone to "snap stalling" is like saying the A6M2 is prone to snap stalling. I'm sure you CAN do it... but the effort it would take would be a clinical exercise rather than a real detriment in combat.

Anybody that comes up against a spit9 has a chance in the MA. You run into a spit16 and it holds ALL the cards. Its' performance is that good.



EDIT: P.S. Levi nobody's going to replace the spit16 with a Ki84. 500fpm advantage is significant, but the spit16 ranges from 750 to 1000fpm better than the Ki84 at most alts. At least according to the quasi-accurate charts. They also wouldn't replace the spit16 with a plane that can't dive worth a damn.

No, what they'd replace it with is the 99% identical Spit8 model. You can't talk about perking the spit16 based on performance without also perking the spit8. They are the same plane. They have the same capabilities. One just rolls better, that's all.

[Dead Man Flying]

EDIT: P.S. Levi nobody's going to replace the spit16 with a Ki84. 500fpm advantage is significant, but the spit16 ranges from 750 to 1000fpm better than the Ki84 at most alts. At least according to the quasi-accurate charts. They also wouldn't replace the spit16 with a plane that can't dive worth a damn.

Sure they would.  The Ki-84 matches up very well with a Spit XVI on pretty much every metric.  You're overstating the importance of feet/minute climb rate, which doesn't factor significantly into a dogfight or multi-target engagement.  The stiffness at high speed and in dives is definitely a negative.

I agree that the Spit VIII would make an adequate replacement, but I laugh at the idea that it should also be perked because of this.  I mean... really?  Where do you stop?  Something will always be "best."  These threads read as ludicrously self-serving.

[Krusty]

You may be misreading my comment. I was saying you can not suggest perking the spit16 without also suggesting the same for the spit8. I was not (in this thread) advocating the perkage itself, simply saying you cannot ignore this other plane in the debate.

I agree there will always be a best unperked ride... but there are some rides that excel above and beyond all competition, as-modeled-in-game. Those rides are worthy of perkage. Does that shift the folks looking for the "best unperked ride" to other planes? Yes.... but that doesn't matter.

As an aside: As capable as the Ki is, and I love that plane a lot more than most, it doesn't compare to a spit16. It has some major handling problems and flaws. The elevator authority is pretty bad. It really has to rush into the fight then dump all speed to get to best manuvering speed. The spit can manuver quite well at much higher speeds, has almost no stalling vices, has much better ability to pull the stick back into one's belly and turn all day long. While I agree some of the specs are close, the overall package isn't as conducive to newbies or 2-weekers or folks looking for an easy ride. Edit: With 1000fpm advantage, yes it does come into play in MA environs. You dictate your position in a fight by using that climb rate to get above anything and everything in a fight and roll in for the attack. Even if it just means the enemy tried to zoom, and stalled out but you were still going strong, you still used that to your advantage just by doing something better than he could.

[guncrasher]

I agree with those who have said PERKING is about game usage and not about peformance numbers. I don't see that hordes of Spit XVI are making flying anything else futile.

well said vinkman. 

krusty/bnz the reason some planes are perked is to discourage most people to use them as they are so uber they would unbalance the arena.  nobody wants to see zillions of 262's or 163's flying around  that's why they're perked.

same for the spit16  most people that up them cant fly them but they stick around to fight.  so you want to discourage people that cant fly spit16 from using them to stick around and fight.  I dont think so.

I'm guessing mg K/D against spits is positive this tour, as it usually is. You look, I can't be bothered.

I KNOW I've out-flown many spit drivers in lesser rides...but this is a matter of utter lack of pilot skill, usually throttle control, on their parts, not plane performance, and is thus unimportant.

k/d ration means absolutely nothing.  since by itself it doesnt prove whether you killed 1v1 or you just picked all the spits.  there's guys that have posted an impressive k/d in a goon.  instead of the k/d ratio I use the more reliable "i seen you fly and you're awesome regardless of the easy-to-manipulate-k/d" meter that I have.

semp

[B3YT]

you can quite easily snap roll a spit IXLFe  if you are in a tight turn fight and throttle up to fast  and use to much rudder to alter your aim or if you try to roll to quickly using rudder it just spins  very easily .

[Noir]

spitXVI/VIII vs Ki84 is a good matchup in the DA, but the spit is superior in climbs and high speed handling. And it doesn't tear it wings as easily. As Krusty said the KI needs to slow the fight a lot to be able to deploy its flaps, witch it depends a lot on to obtain to obtain its best turns.

I believe the XVI's pilots would report to the VIII and the Ki. More Ki's can't hurt, Japanese planes need more representation in the MA IMO.

Of course I created this thread for my own agenda, I don't claim to be totally objective.

[Karnak]

Noir,

Krusty's point was that if you perk the XVI, you have to also perk the VIII.

[Guppy35]

The 38G turns better. Average pilot in the Lightning will force average pilot in the Pony to run or die pretty easily. 38s are a special case as well, because the torquelessness gives them certain advantages over all single engine jobs. So this is just plain (plane) wrong.

And the J and L sustain a better turn rate, AND climb/accell better.

If the 51 fights the 38s fight you are right.  But the 51 with its speed controls the fight if it is flown right.  You bet I hope the 51 driver tries to turn fight my 38G.  That's not the plane's mistake, that's the 51 driver.

The OP doesn't like Spit 16s.  He's trying to make the case it's impacting the game negatively.  It's not.  Apparently he wasn't around for the LA7 years, or the F4U1C days.

OK perk the 16 and they all get in 8s.  Doesn't seem particularly fair to the RAF fans or Spitfire fans.

Gee, some of the best sticks in the game fly 109K4s.  It has all kinds of advantages.  Let's perk it cause it's not fair.  Make em all fly 109G6s. 

How bout we let folks fly what they want, and if they clobber us in our bird of choice I guess well just have to re-up again.  Good thing we don't really die.

In the end, I guess I'm just tired of Spit whiners.  It's gone on forever.  It's one of the most famous airplanes from WW2 if not THE most famous.  I'm glad HTC has taken the time to model the different versions they have.  I'm glad they gave us a clipped wing version.  They did that in WW2.  It was to counter the roll rate of the 190.  To take that away because it worked, and bothers a game player would be silly too.  And that we have the Spit VIII with the earlier gun package and full span wings, gives the Spit drivers a choice between the LFVIII and the LFXVIe.  Same engine performance.  The VIII a bit heavier due to more fuel and retracting tail wheel but thats it.  And if folks want to fight a bit higher, the Spit FIX we have gives us that type of Spit too.

Bottom line both in game and historically, the Spitfire was a well designed, pilot friendly aircraft, in particular the Merlin versions.  It did make good pilots better.  Asking HTC to model that out of the game, just to appease whiners about it's performance, is just silly.

Kudos to the guys who learn more difficult birds.  I'm glad they take the challenge.  Mandating that to players is wrong however. 

[Noir]

Noir,

Krusty's point was that if you perk the XVI, you have to also perk the VIII.

oops thanks for clarification. I don't agree on that, the spitVIII is limited on the roll axis like the other spits, and that is an exploitable weakness.

[Noir]

Apparently he wasn't around for the LA7 years, or the F4U1C days.

Actually I was there for the F4U1C, but I couldn't fly fighters for **** back then.

 I'm shedding a tear, that was the good ol' times 

Tour 20 Statistics for NewNuke
   Fighter     Bomber     Attack     Veh./Boat     Total
Kills    14    12    1    13    40
Assists    4    2    0    4    10
Sorties    56    89    3    9    157
 Landed    2    11    0    1    14
 Bailed    0    0    0    0    0
 Ditched    2    11    0    4    17
 Captured    2    2    0    1    5
 Deaths    50    64    3    3    120
 Discos    0    1    0    0    1
Time hh:mm:ss    04:45:58    16:39:55    00:29:02    02:15:48    24:10:43
Rank    1417    462    605    109    496