P-38 turnfight

[Plazus]

JOACH1M,

Ok ok, early Luft planes all te way to the g14 38's are very outclassed.

This is incorrect. The early 38 models can easily handle the early war Luft rides. The mid war P38, that being the P38J, can easily handle any mid war and late war Luft aircraft. When the P38 first went into service, it was one of the fastest combat aircraft in the world, being the first to achieve 400 mph in level flight at critical altitude. None of the aircraft during this time could catch it, save for the Mosquito later on. The earlier P38s are a fair match for any early Luft plane- but it really just depends on the pilot, not the plane.

Late war 109's and 190's will have a helluva time turning with a deascent 38j/L.

Remember that it is not the plane, but the pilot. And yes, A P38J/L pilot can handle any late war Luft plane, save for the 262, in an even fight (assuming the 38 pilot knows what he is doing).

190a5 and turn with a p47, a 38 outturns a jug at slow speeds. Therfore a 190 can't out turn a 38, even the a5 (the best turning 190)

A P47 has a tighter turn radius than a P38. However, the P38 has a significantly better sustained turn rate. The 190 doesn't really come close to matching the P38's turn radius and rate. The P47 is only marginally better in the turn rate category than the 190.

Your argument cannot be used as a basis of which plane is better. There are more complex issues involved, and much of that is centered around pilot skill.

[JOACH1M]

If you put a p38G on a 109F the 109 will make it difficult for the p38 to kill.


In pilot skill part, I ran into a "80th" dude in a 38L and me in my k4 and he was clearly out turnin me in a downward scissors, but I just ended taking it to the vert and playing E game.

Fear the pilot, not the plane...

[StokesAk]

Turn rates don't matter unless you are into the luftberry type of flying, thanks for playing.

[Debrody]

Dudes, it all depends on the eyepoint.
In my g6 i outturn/scissor every p38 and im able to kill them unless they have serious advantage at the beginning.
I bet the better p38 pilots out there have the same experience about the 109s, of course with the opposite result.
I THINK the 109F completely outclasses the p38G, and the G-6 is in par with the J/L, being a lil bit better in close combat while the 38 is a better energy/BnZ-fighter. Its my opinion, based on interaction with some better P38 pilots.
<S>
Edit: the g6 is almost in par with Las, Jaks, Ki84s, ki-61s, p40s, F6Fs etc from the same category, depending mostly on the pilot who will be the winner. The p38 CAN do the same, and with a decent pilot who has good SA in the 1v1 and able to realize when he will be unstoppable in the rope, its a real decent turnfighter.

[Karnak]

Turn rates don't matter unless you are into the luftberry type of flying, thanks for playing.

It does matter outside of the luftberry, just not as much.  The faster you can change direction the more options you have.

[Soulyss]

The 109F should hold most of the cards against the 38G IMHO.

[The Fugitive]

The 109F should hold most of the cards against the 38G IMHO.

ahhhh .... what do you know ?  


good news is ya don't run into too many F's these days 

[Plazus]

If you put a p38G on a 109F the 109 will make it difficult for the p38 to kill.

Perhaps, but 109s don't really like turning to the right ya know...

Fear the pilot, not the plane...

Precisely the point of my whole argument.

[JOACH1M]

good news is ya don't run into too many F's these days 

I'm taking this as a chelenge...FLY ONE O NINE EFF! '

[TwinBoom]

I THINK the 109F completely outclasses the p38G

[ink]

 I have seen some great 38 drivers, most are just meat in the fridge......same with spits...LA's.....N1K's...ECT...ECT

the plane it self is minor, I have found it don't matter what the "paper" says a plane can do, its what the pilot controlling said plane, can do with that plane.

now that's not to say you should not learn the "paper" of each and every plane, but to hold that as gospel is bad.

Understanding E and being able to judge an nme's E state is probably one of the most important aspects of dog-fighting.

my .02$

[BnZs]

the plane it self is minor, I have found it don't matter what the "paper" says a plane can do, its what the pilot controlling said plane, can do with that plane.

now that's not to say you should not learn the "paper" of each and every plane, but to hold that as gospel is bad.

Applying the "paper" differences well is what makes a good pilot in any dissimilar ACM.

On "paper" the P-38 is a real crap plane. Not fast, not a great climber, does not turn exceptionally well, even the roll rate is pedestrian at most speeds...IF it were single engine it would really suck. IF. Understanding the torquelessness that makes it a unique fighter is the key of every dangerous P-38 pilot.

[Guppy35]

WING47,

Don't fall for the History Channel style hyperbole.  The P-38 in AH is easily one of the best fighters, but there never was a P-38 in reality that would utterly dominate all of its contemporaries the way you describe.

As Plazus said, we have the P-38L with those boosted controls, and hence it is the best rolling aircraft in AH over ~400mph.  You can't do anything to make it turn better with boosted controls, certainly not better than the Spitfire which had notoriously light elevator controls, even at high speeds.

One things folks need to keep in mind when talking about the 38L is that it got into the game late, when 38s in air combat were a rarity.  The 38s did most of their killing from 42-44 and the 38L only arrived in the ETO in October 44 when the 38s were ground attack birds.  This is the same time frame for the PTO and MTO was later then that, again when the 38s along with most fighters were dropping bombs for lack of air to air targets.

The "aces' did their killing in earlier birds. 

Kind of the same as the 51 drivers with the majority of the "aces' doing their killing in 51Bs prior to D-Day.  Same with the Jug driver Aces.  Most think of Gabby Gabreski's D-25, but he did the majority of his work in a razorback Jug.  Bob Johnson got all his in earlier D model Razorbacks as well.

As the late birds are also the surviving warbirds, most folks know only of that particular version.  As with anything the last models were the most refined because of the work done in the earlier models.

[SPKmes]

I heard it was a bomber...where are you guys getting this fighter stuff from 

[Guppy35]

Time for my favorite combat report of WW2

Lt. Royal Madden  from the 370th FG, 9th AF, July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left.  I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me.  I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet.  This boy was good and he had me plenty worried  as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection.  I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst.  There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off.  He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home.  Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped.  As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”