Mustang on the Endangered List (Cap)

[CAP1]

So full race prepared cars somehow equate to what the stock street cars do when matched up?  Go back and watch that vid you posted again, and tell me what happens from the starting line to half way between turns 1 and 2..... 

Saying that those race results reflect what you can get out of the "consumer variety" is like me saying mid 80's Honda CRX's are faster than '80's V8 Camaros and Mustangs from the factory just 'cause I used to smoke most of the American Sedan (Stangs and Camaros, in a slightly hotter than "showroom stock" level of prep) field in my ITB class CRX. Heck, there were plenty of days my best lap time was faster than most of ITA and ITS, which was made up of Mazda RX7's, BMW 325i's, 240Z's... 

 when the boss 302 there is the boss 302 i can buy for 47k..............

 in a couple of weeks, they run at laguna. it'll be interesting to see how the boss perofrms, now that beemer's had a chance to change their stuff.......

[Reaper90]

when the boss 302 there is the boss 302 i can buy for 47k..............

 in a couple of weeks, they run at laguna. it'll be interesting to see how the boss perofrms, now that beemer's had a chance to change their stuff.......

What series are you referring to? Grand-Am, or whatever they're calling it now? World Challenge?

[CAP1]

What series are you referring to? Grand-Am, or whatever they're calling it now? World Challenge?

 it's the continental tire challenge series. out of 6 races so far this season, it's mustang 3, bmw 3. camaro has yet to win one.

 i gotta admit though....ford does have an advantage over chevy in that one.......they were runing the 5 liter engine in 2010....that was their proving ground, before they put it in a street car. 

[Reaper90]

when the boss 302 there is the boss 302 i can buy for 47k..............

continental tire challenge series.

 

I figured you were talking about that series, and sorry, NO, you're not going to any Ford dealership and buying a Boss 302 that would do anything but get lapped viciously in one of those races. They started off as production cars (most of them "bodies in white" from the factory, stripped down production car shells and rolling chassis' ready to be built into race cars), but are rebuilt from the ground up as race cars. You will not find stock, unmodified engines, brakes, shocks, springs, gearboxes, rear ends, etc in any of those cars. Those guys use custom valved shocks (not Ford stuff), custom springs (not Ford stuff), build the engines to 10/10ths of what the rules allow, custom FD ratios depending on track, etc etc etc.

I figure with about $100 grand you could make a "fresh from the factory" Boss 302 competitive...... but it ain't gonna be the same car you bought for $47K.  

[CAP1]

I figured you were talking about that series, and sorry, NO, you're not going to any Ford dealership and buying a Boss 302 that would do anything but get lapped viciously in one of those races. They started off as production cars (most of them "bodies in white" from the factory, stripped down production car shells and rolling chassis' ready to be built into race cars), but are rebuilt from the ground up as race cars. You will not find stock, unmodified engines, brakes, shocks, springs, gearboxes, rear ends, etc in any of those cars. Those guys use custom valved shocks (not Ford stuff), custom springs (not Ford stuff), build the engines to 10/10ths of what the rules allow, custom FD ratios depending on track, etc etc etc.

I figure with about $100 grand you could make a "fresh from the factory" Boss 302 competitive...... but it ain't gonna be the same car you bought for $47K.  

 you're both right and wrong. more like 80k.  

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1040900_the-boss-is-back-2011-ford-mustang-boss-302r-race-package

 ih yea....it's limited production.......

[Reaper90]

you're both right and wrong. more like 80k.  

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1040900_the-boss-is-back-2011-ford-mustang-boss-302r-race-package

And you think that car will be competitive in the Continental Tire Challenge series as delivered for $79,900? And that the guys running at the front are running the same shock valving and spring rates at every track, the same FD ratios, and they haven't spent tens of thousands on testing? I'd bet just the spare parts they carry from track to track to set-up and tune the car for each race is worth as much as a new Boss 302 street car.

Rule of thumb, take the cost of the car, multiply it by 2 or 3 to make it fast enough to win with the right driver, multiply that by 10 to do it for a whole season.

You know how to make a small fortune in racing? Start with a huge one! (As told to me by a crew chief for a World Challenge Porsche team during my brief stint crewing for a fiend of mine when he ran his Corvette in World Challenge GT in the late '90's).

[Reaper90]

ih yea....it's limited production.......

And it's also not street legal so, no, it ain't "consumer variety" or in any way, shape, or form the same Boss 302 you'd buy for $47K 

[CAP1]

And it's also not street legal so, no, it ain't "consumer variety" or in any way, shape, or form the same Boss 302 you'd buy for $47K 

 yea...i didn't say that one was.

 it's ok though. i know you're stirring......and at least for me it is good......this is a fun argument. at least for me it is. even if the camaro really was faster or quicker, it'd be fun to argue this.

 at least the camaro guys can say that it beat the 2010 and older stangs. 

[MaSonZ]

 

[Shuffler]

yea...i didn't say that one was.

 it's ok though. i know you're stirring......and at least for me it is good......this is a fun argument. at least for me it is. even if the camaro really was faster or quicker, it'd be fun to argue this.

 at least the camaro guys can say that it beat the 2010 and older stangs. 

Yup for one short year mustang has a bit more HP. Folks are not buying them but hey... that does not matter.

[CAP1]

Yup for one short year mustang has a bit more HP. Folks are not buying them but hey... that does not matter.

'cause they can't get them. so they go to second best.  

EDIT>>>>>>

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1051784_2012-boss-mustang-track-key-detailed

Available through Ford dealers, the Track Key adds Ford's TracMode powertrain control software. The software gives the car full race calibration and two-stage launch control without negatively affecting the warranty.

[Skuzzy]

Actually the reverse was true.

The auto companies routinely underreported horsepower because of the insurance companies.

That practice did not start until the mid-60's and it was mostly with the big block engines in order to stay off insurance costs.

The HP numbers were still being reported as gross and not net values making any type of comparison to today invalid.

From 2005, and onward, you can compare all the HP numbers you like from any American made car and those would be valid comparisons, as those numbers are pretty accurate.  From 1972 to 2005, they are somewhat close.  From 1972 and back, they are meaningless marketing numbers.  Underrated, overrated, gross rated...does not matter how it was rated, they were not accurate at all.

[Tyrannis]

That practice did not start until the mid-60's and it was mostly with the big block engines in order to stay off insurance costs.

The HP numbers were still being reported as gross and not net values making any type of comparison to today invalid.

From 2005, and onward, you can compare all the HP numbers you like from any American made car and those would be valid comparisons, as those numbers are pretty accurate.  From 1972 to 2005, they are somewhat close.  From 1972 and back, they are meaningless marketing numbers.  Underrated, overrated, gross rated...does not matter how it was rated, they were not accurate at all.

i believe top gear caught ford lieing about the 2005 mustang gt500 aswell.


they did a dyno test on it, came to about only 427hp instead of the 500 it was claiming.

[icepac]

So full race prepared cars somehow equate to what the stock street cars do when matched up?  Go back and watch that vid you posted again, and tell me what happens from the starting line to half way between turns 1 and 2..... 

Saying that those race results reflect what you can get out of the "consumer variety" is like me saying mid 80's Honda CRX's are faster than '80's V8 Camaros and Mustangs from the factory just 'cause I used to smoke most of the American Sedan (Stangs and Camaros, in a slightly hotter than "showroom stock" level of prep) field in my ITB class CRX. Heck, there were plenty of days my best lap time was faster than most of ITA and ITS, which was made up of Mazda RX7's, BMW 325i's, 240Z's... 

Tough challenge racing a ITB legal crx vs the bmw 2002s, turismo tc-3, and the volvos in ITB.

Probably harder than being competitive in ITA with the CRX-SI.

You won't see any ITB mixing lap times with the ITA and ITS guys in SEdiv or NEdiv.

[Reaper90]

Tough challenge racing a ITB legal crx vs the bmw 2002s, turismo tc-3, and the volvos in ITB.

Probably harder than being competitive in ITA with the CRX-SI.

You won't see any ITB mixing lap times with the ITA and ITS guys in SEdiv or NEdiv.

 

I won the ITB SEdiv championship in 2006 in that CRX, and was regularly qualifying and starting ahead of 2/3 of the ITA field and most of the IT7 guys, and probably half of the ITS guys, especially at CMP. Most of the time at Roebling and Road Atlanta we were in different run groups. At Rockingham only 2 ITA and 1 IT7 outqualified me, out of a combined run group of about 30 cars (ITA, IT7, ITB, ITC), started 4th overall and finished 5th IIRC.

Ask David Liera (ITB 2005 SEdiv champ from Miami) about my CRX. 

The Volvos always ate me alive at Road Atlanta due to the long straights, but on the tighter courses the CRX Si is a very competitive car in B. That being said, my car had everything that you could have on an 87 CRX Si... Housemann 4.93 FD, Mugen LSD, Koni double adjustable shocks, 29mm torsion bars up front, OPM Autosports engine, custom race header, etc.

If there aren't B cars mixing it up with the mid pack ITA and ITS guys either B has gotten a lot slower since 2006/7 or ITS and ITA have gotten a lot faster in the SEdiv.