P-47 flaps

[kvuo75]

the flap lever isnt notched like on eg. a cessna, its a hydraulic system and the lever gives you more or less flap with a neutral position in the middle. ,

thats exactly how both c172's ive flown have worked...  electric, not hyrdraulic though. but there were no "notches"

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

We limit flaps settings based on POH and manuals and such.

We?

[Charge]

"the flap lever isnt notched like on eg. a cessna"

I recall that there is a possibility to lock the knob to: up, 10 deg(?) and 40deg i.e. full down.

-C+

[FLS]

Why would that make a difference?

No claim to expert status here, but the only WWII fighter I've read about that used flaps in combat was the P-51, which had flaps specially designed for that purpose.  Certainly I haven't come across anything like the widespread use of flaps we see in AH.

- oldman

The difference is that landing uses full or near full flaps for drag as well as slow speed lift. I've read recommendations for 50% flaps at high alts for P-47s in order to improve handling. It's likely that they were going faster than 195 MPH at 30-40k altitude.

[FLS]

thats just a transcript of the pilot notes for the -B, -C, -D and -G which matches my copy (01-65BC-1). it also says that extending flaps trims the aircraft slightly nose-down. there is no mention at all of using flaps for maneuvering in there apart from landing and takeoff. same with the -N manual.

one more thing makes me wonder if flaps were used in ACM - the flap lever isnt notched like on eg. a cessna, its a hydraulic system and the lever gives you more or less flap with a neutral position in the middle. you nudge the flaps up or down, checking the amount of extension using the 10^o markings on the flaps' leading edges, and making sure its the same extension on both wings. not the kind of thing you would want to do with people shooting at you ...

I wasn't questioning the accuracy of the site, just pointing out that it wasn't the source document.

As you mentioned the manuals do not specify speed limits for flap extensions for maneuvering.

[Stoney]

The manual for B, C, D, and G says "never lower flaps above 195 mph".

-C+

Its also a manual dated Jan 43, IIRC.  That flap speed restriction is for full flaps.  This has been discussed here before--repeatedly about all of the U.S. aircraft vs. the other planes in the plane set.  The issue is that there is documentation supporting the use of combat flaps on U.S. aircraft at speeds above their listed flap operation speeds for full flaps.  Without digging through everything, the P-38, P-47, P-51, F4U, F6F, etc. (off the top of my head--I could be wrong about the individual models) were all authorized to use combat flaps at higher speeds than the speed restrictions listed in their respective operating instructions .

[RTHolmes]

yup its an early manual, the 47N manual however is from 1/9/1945 ...

have you found any instructions on using flaps for maneuvering? I'd be interested to know what I should be trying to do at least

[Stoney]

yup its an early manual, the 47N manual however is from 1/9/1945 ...

have you found any instructions on using flaps for maneuvering? I'd be interested to know what I should be trying to do at least

You mean with respect to what speed you should be able to use them, or how to maximize their effectiveness?

[Krusty]

We?

We, as in us in this game. Not IL2. Not WB. Not TargetWare, not Cliffs of Dover. We, Aces High.

Same as the We in "We Are Marshall" and all that.

Don't try to twist it, you know perfectly well what I meant and what my point was.

[Charge]

Since you'r at it Stoney why don't you comment my earlier post too:

"What is the difference in flap designs to enable others to deploy only at <200mph and others at 400mph? I'd does seem that it is an artificial limitation based on manual recommendations, not the actual structure and its strength since that kind of data is hard to get."

I cannot think of anything that would prevent any plane from using "some" flaps for maneuvering, if the system supports partial deployment as eg. in Spit it doesn't but again bf109 gives you opportunity to deploy any amount of flaps you possibly want, except the strength of flap system or the flap itself.

"have you found any instructions on using flaps for maneuvering?"

"You mean with respect to what speed you should be able to use them, or how to maximize their effectiveness?"

Have you found  a n y  instructions?

-C+

[RTHolmes]

You mean with respect to what speed you should be able to use them, or how to maximize their effectiveness?

effectiveness in specific maneuvers is what I was hoping for. In the jug I tend to use a notch pretty much every time I need to turn more than a little, but only one notch. maybe 2 at the top of a loop if I'm starting to float.

[Stoney]

effectiveness in specific maneuvers is what I was hoping for. In the jug I tend to use a notch pretty much every time I need to turn more than a little, but only one notch. maybe 2 at the top of a loop if I'm starting to float.

Well, flaps create both a higher Coefficient of Lift for the flapped area, and some drag (and with fowlers, like on the P-38) some additional wing area.  So, the balance is to use flaps when the extra lift counteracts the penalty of the extra drag.  If you're in a situation where the extra drag is hurting your performance worse than the benefits the extra lift gives you, they don't do you any good.

Badboy showed a chart one time demonstrating the F4U and how each notch of flaps affected its performance.  I think turn rate increased up until he had 3 notches in, and the 4th and 5th notch merely added more drag and slowed the rate.  I'll caveat that by saying that they may not benefit the Jug in the same manner, and that testing in-game with your ride of choice, at a specific weight (say 50% fuel and half ammo or whatever you feel best represents a typical average combat weight for you) will give you the best fidelity.  I hardly ever use flaps in the Jug unless I'm in a knife fight, or sometimes when I'm trying to get over the top of a loop. 

[Stoney]

Since you'r at it Stoney why don't you comment my earlier post too:

"What is the difference in flap designs to enable others to deploy only at <200mph and others at 400mph? I'd does seem that it is an artificial limitation based on manual recommendations, not the actual structure and its strength since that kind of data is hard to get."

I don't know.  I assume different types of actuating mechanisms are inherently stronger (and probably heavier) than others.  From what I understand, it is all about manual (or other documentation, like supplemental operating instructions) limitations.  If the documentation says no flap use above 250 mph, then that's what we have in-game.  If the documentation says something like "up to 20% flaps may be used at 350 mph IAS" then that's what we have in-game.  Its just like the F4U landing gear door thing.  Yeah, there might be another aircraft that you can drop the gear at 400mph and not have it ripped off, but its the only aircraft in the game where the manual says you can do it without ripping it off.

I cannot think of anything that would prevent any plane from using "some" flaps for maneuvering, if the system supports partial deployment as eg. in Spit it doesn't but again bf109 gives you opportunity to deploy any amount of flaps you possibly want, except the strength of flap system or the flap itself.

Agreed, but we don't know, and HTC has to draw a line somewhere.  We don't know whether or not it would have damaged the system or not, because it wasn't approved beyond a certain speed.

"have you found any instructions on using flaps for maneuvering?"

"You mean with respect to what speed you should be able to use them, or how to maximize their effectiveness?"

Have you found  a n y  instructions?


-C+

I haven't looked exhaustively...

EDIT:  P-38 POH limits the use of "maneuvering flaps" (which is 50% of full flaps) to 250 mph IAS and full flaps to 150 mph IAS.  So, you can go test whether or not there is fidelity with that restriction in-game, just make sure you're looking at IAS when you do it.  If you can keep 3 notches of flaps beyond 250mph IAS, we'll know there's an issue...

[dtango]

The P-47 flaps are fully variable like the 109.  Looking at various POH's for the P-47D's they state:





From this we can infer that the stated restriction is most likely the lower bound limit for full flap extension for landing and not limits for partial flap extensions.

[bozon]

In the jug I tend to use a notch pretty much every time I need to turn more than a little, but only one notch. maybe 2 at the top of a loop if I'm starting to float.

The rule of thumb is that if you can pull the (instantaneous) G you need without any flaps, you are better off without them - unless drag is something you desire (for rapid loss of speed).

Generally what flaps will do is allow you to reach higher AoA and hence higher lift for the price of extra drag (the statements about lift gain are only instantaneous before speed is lost). If you can achieve the lift needed without the use of flaps, you will have less drag and hold the E better. The advantage of flaps kicks in at low speeds when the maximum AoA still does not give you enough insta-lift and you want a bit more - this is the case in an unsustained tight turns or when trying to fly as slow as possible (landing or smallest turning circle).

This is not 100% accurate over all envelope and types of flaps, but a very good approximation. I guess fowlers may behave slightly differently since they also add effective area to the wing, but to first order the rule of thumb applies.