The Grizz-Venn System

[Sonicblu]

Venn diagram should presuppose logic.....

So many logical fallacies don't know where to begin.

Let's start with fallacy of quality...... Any comparison other than brew vs brew is subjective. 

Ez mode compared to what????????

Once you put both pilots in a brew it only deducts to what pilot is better. 

I can ho a brew in a 47 and call the 47 ez mode....

Venn diagram only works with deductive sylogism, and is only visual representation of deduction. Otherwise pure speculation. . To grizz for the troolll.

The venn diagram presupposes deductive logic, anyone arguing subjectively is using inductive logic...  Lol can't be done.....

Make it a real argument put you guys is any same plane as Wm and most will get a can of wooop prettythang.

Anyway Wm doesn't need me to hump his ankle.  Funny stuff no other pilot in a brew gets the rant that Wm gets... Probably because none can own so easily in it.    

[DrBone1]

Make it a real argument put you guys is any same plane as Wm and most will get a can of wooop prettythang.

Anyway Wm doesn't need me to hump his ankle.  Funny stuff no other pilot in a brew gets the rant that Wm gets... Probably because none can own so easily in it.    

In my book WMaker is a great guy/stick and always will be no matter what he flys.   I had to 

[grizz441]

Venn diagram should presuppose logic.....

So many logical fallacies don't know where to begin.

Let's start with fallacy of quality...... Any comparison other than brew vs brew is subjective.  

Ez mode compared to what????????

Once you put both pilots in a brew it only deducts to what pilot is better.  

I can ho a brew in a 47 and call the 47 ez mode....

Venn diagram only works with deductive sylogism, and is only visual representation of deduction. Otherwise pure speculation. . To grizz for the troolll.

The venn diagram presupposes deductive logic, anyone arguing subjectively is using inductive logic...  Lol can't be done.....

Make it a real argument put you guys is any same plane as Wm and most will get a can of wooop prettythang.

Anyway Wm doesn't need me to hump his ankle.  Funny stuff no other pilot in a brew gets the rant that Wm gets... Probably because none can own so easily in it.    

You win the "Hamlet Skull in Hand To Be or Not To Be" Post of the Day.  Wtg Socrates.

[Sonicblu]

Lol grizz funny stuff.. . 

Did I kill all the fun? Wm and two others only one that have the brains to know what I'm talking about. So no harm done.

Keep up the good work. I like a good pillow fight. 


   

[Rich52]

I love the Brewster, tho it doesnt really fit my style of play. You cant take them for granted cause its very likely the enemy in them knows what hes doing. A 0.74 K/D is the same as a D-Hog only with no ords. You mention W-maker, but there are also others. Ive loved the plane since it was first intro'ed.

[dirtdart]

On Wmaker:  When the Brew came out, I dug and dug to find a way to make the Brewster not be what it is perceived to be.  After some pretty interesting discussions with Wmaker, about an airplane he is clearly passionate about, I have come to this conclusion.  95% of the people in this game have an altered perception of the Brewster because they try to fight it on its terms.  The fact is, no one has come forward with any data to refute the existing flight model of the Brewster.  Until that occurs, it is what it is.  Everyone (including myself in the past) who uses anecdote to refute math needs to have their egos checked.  It is entirely possibly for a Brewster to shoot down a 262.  It is entirely possible for a Brewster to climb in the vertical with or better than a K4.  The same as it is for every plane on the turny bird list of the ven diagram.  It all depends on the airspeed and E state of the faster plane, period.  Leave the man alone unless you bring something other than I got my dogtag bent because....I tried to turn fight a Brewster in a Pony and the Brewster managed to shoot me down.  This is impossible because (insert some statistic on HP, ROC, etc...)

On Sonicblu:  Put some time in and come up with another product.  I don't like this because (insert random statement here) is weak.  Reality is that Grizz's chart there is clever, and also took some time to put together.  It makes sense to me and is an interesting way of structuring the fighters.  Thats all it is, not a personal attack on a style of flying or a particular plane.  

I do apologize for the diatribe, but really, this cupcake crap annoys me.  The potential for really good discussion on this thread keeps getting offset by personal attacks/agendas.  

[grizz441]

Lol grizz funny stuff.. . 

Did I kill all the fun? Wm and two others only one that have the brains to know what I'm talking about. So no harm done.

Keep up the good work. I like a good pillow fight. 

 Just playin. 
 

[Shane]

I think the F4u-1 and -a hogs should be just inside the mendoza line @ hybrid.  Also for all intents and porpoises, the spit5 and seafire are very very comparable, yet apart on the venn...

you're also missing the total set circle that encompasses the subsets you've presented - "dweeb"   

[Ardy123]

The point just won't go across, obviously. I'm sure my short fuze is partly to blame, no doubt. But no one seems to (or wants to?) look at the reason why my fuze has gotten shorter and shorter. On this board, and I guess in Internet in general, it seems to be ok to post any kind of BS drivel and then when some one calls the BS talker on it they tend to act all hurt and insulted as we all know how delicated and tender people's feelings can be, and then the guy who called on it is the bad guy. No matter how many times the said BS talker spreads his manure, he has to be treaded with silk gloves, no matter how low he manages to drop the level of the discussion. With enough of this kind of idiots, attitudes and BS talkers any meaningful discussion degenerates into something that doesn't have any information value what so ever but the disinformation value is through the roof.

I have absolutely zero need to "defend" Brewster here. No proof of its aledged "overmodelling" has been forthcoming and the reason for that is that every test I've done on it and compared the results to the primary source materials shows that it is actually pretty dang close. Even if it would be overmodelled, the ones who think it is couldn't really prove it anyway because generally they show no motivation or/and ability to do any research or testing.

And as I said, in the end, it isn't even about Brewster but the methodology and logic how claims like these should be made and what kind of proof should be put forth with them in general. I just happen to have studied Brewster enough to remember an ok amount of numerical values of it off hand so it is easy for me to see right away when someone is talking complete BS about it. And oh dear, this board sure is full of it compared to the actual useful information. And because of these loud mouths that don't follow any reasonable logic or methdology or do any research, the useful informantion drowns in a big pile of manure, which in itself is a great shame and a source of great amounts of frustration.

you don't get it do you?

The difference between holding a conversation with you and say Stoney or dtango, is that they keep to the facts and are respectful. You on the other hand choose to pepper every other phase with an angry insult or a self aggrandizing comment. As long as you continue to behave that way, it doesn't matter what you say, you will be thought of as an a-hole and be treated likewise.

[Karnak]

Updated chart observations:

No way is the A6M3 easier than the B-239.  A6M5b might be easier, but I am skeptical.  The A6M3 and A6M5 are faster and climb better, in all other ways the B-239 is superior.  Pretty much like comparing the Bf109K-4 to the Spitfire Mk IX.  If you were being consistent, the Bf109K-4 would be rated as easier than the Spitfire Mk IX, but it isn't.

Spitfire Mk XIV is, at best, on par with the Bf109K-4.  In practicality, I think the Bf109K-4 is a bit easier, but that is a close debate.

Ki-61 is, in no way, easier than the Bf109F-4 or Bf109G-2.

Ki-61 is not easier than any F4U.

Ki-61 is not easier than the F6F-5.

Bf109G-6 is not easier than the Bf109F-4 or Bf109G-2.

The speed and acceleration of the Bf109G-14 make it significantly easier than the Bf109G-6.

P-38J and P-38L are significantly easier than either the Bf110G-2 (in an air-to-air capacity) or the Mosquito Mk VI.

The Mosquito Mk VI is harder to be successful in than either the Fw190A-5 or P-51B.

Typhoon's poor roll rate and spread guns make it noticeably harder than the F4U-1C.

The Spitfire Mk VIII's significant advantage in speed and acceleration/climb makes it noticeably superior to the Spitfire Mk IX.

I don't think the addition of 120 20mm rounds and naval equipment make the Seafire Mk II that much better than the Spitfire Mk V.

I'm no F4U expert, but the divergence you have for the F4U-1 and F4U-1A/F4U-1D doesn't match my limited time in them.

[Ardy123]

To truly appreciate grizz's chart one must evaluate it from a scenario or style of flying.. ie...

If two people are in the DA and the expectation is to turn fight (not extend for 6k then bnz etc..), then the zero/brewster/hurry etc.. will be on the 'EZ mode' section and the 190 a8 will be considered hard.

Now...

If one is in the MA and both planes enter co-e, the chart changes mildly, as some of the faster rides can extend, gain e, and then us that adv to beat the other planes.

But, say if its a multi-con engagement where people are constantly coming in at the top of the furball and progressively fighting lower and lower or where one plane has a significant 'e' advantage, then the chart changes again as a turny bird with more 'e' has more options, as long as it can dive well (preventing the lower con from being able to extend and normalize e states).

[Karnak]

To truly appreciate grizz's chart one must evaluate it from a scenario or style of flying.. ie...

This makes no sense.  That would make it so subjective as to make it meaningless.  There is nothing that should cause the F4U-1 to be rated that differently from the other F4Us or the Seafire Mk II to be rated that much easier than the Spitfire Mk V.

[Wmaker]

you don't get it do you?

The difference between holding a conversation with you and say Stoney or dtango, is that they keep to the facts and are respectful.

Considering your behaviour ever since the Brewster was introduced, you don't deserve any respect, none what so ever.

You from that other thread:

"somewhere in Finland
"

You've behaved like that all along. I could say that I have never in my life felt a need to treat someone without respect until he gives me a reason. Had you come across differently from the start, I most certainly would have done the same. I have absolutely no need to tear into someone without a reason.

If someone starts questioning Brewster's performance on these Boards and I haven't seen him before I most certainly give him benefit of the doubt and answer with facts. Usually the first thing that needs to explained is the huge weight difference between B239 and F2A-3. You acted like a moron right start and I treated you as one, as simple as that.

[Wmaker]

And Ardy, I read through this thread from my first response to you. Just as I said in that response, it wasn't meant as an offence, I sincerely told you how your response sounded and how you came across. Your response was something nonsense like "I got you again, haha" or something equally stupid. Read the whole thing through and think; where did it all actually start to degenerate? Admittledy my tone was abraise from there on but I didn't single you out I was talking about larger group of people after that.

The point is that you should already know better because we've been trhough all this before and you still choose to harp about without bringing anything new and concrete on the table, that's where my tone comes from.

[waystin2]

Updated chart observations:

No way is the A6M3 easier than the B-239.  A6M5b might be easier, but I am skeptical.  The A6M3 and A6M5 are faster and climb better, in all other ways the B-239 is superior.  Pretty much like comparing the Bf109K-4 to the Spitfire Mk IX.  If you were being consistent, the Bf109K-4 would be rated as easier than the Spitfire Mk IX, but it isn't.

Spitfire Mk XIV is, at best, on par with the Bf109K-4.  In practicality, I think the Bf109K-4 is a bit easier, but that is a close debate.

Ki-61 is, in no way, easier than the Bf109F-4 or Bf109G-2.

Ki-61 is not easier than any F4U.

Ki-61 is not easier than the F6F-5.

Bf109G-6 is not easier than the Bf109F-4 or Bf109G-2.

The speed and acceleration of the Bf109G-14 make it significantly easier than the Bf109G-6.

P-38J and P-38L are significantly easier than either the Bf110G-2 (in an air-to-air capacity) or the Mosquito Mk VI.

The Mosquito Mk VI is harder to be successful in than either the Fw190A-5 or P-51B.

Typhoon's poor roll rate and spread guns make it noticeably harder than the F4U-1C.

The Spitfire Mk VIII's significant advantage in speed and acceleration/climb makes it noticeably superior to the Spitfire Mk IX.

I don't think the addition of 120 20mm rounds and naval equipment make the Seafire Mk II that much better than the Spitfire Mk V.

I'm no F4U expert, but the divergence you have for the F4U-1 and F4U-1A/F4U-1D doesn't match my limited time in them.

I concur with your assessments but then that is my opinion.  There are hole's everwhere and I have said before it is subjective.  There is nothing to back up the distribution of planes other than Grizz's opinion.