Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s

[Guppy35]

From the recently acquired 364th FG history.  They flew 38s then 51s in the ETO with the 8th AF.  The pilot's name is Ken Nicholson.  he's referring to the 38J-25 or 38L with the power assisted controls.  Thought his comment regarding out rolling 190s was interesting.

"The P-38 was one of the worlds fastest diving airplanes.  Unfortunately it was Hell to pull out.  One of those experiences was enough.  By using servo tabs on the ailerons and rudders though it became one of the world's fastest rollers.  I've started after a FW190 in a roll and waited for him to finish  The P51s were easier to fly, not nearly as maneuverable as my P-38 and 15 mph slower, but they surely did alright above 15,000 feet.  I wound up with two and a share, but it seems to be a unique category because some of the aces introduce me as one of their 'half-aced' friends"

[Charge]

Well, the NACA868 report states that the roll rate of fw190 starts to fall above 250mph and even a P-51 would outroll it above 350mph (with 50lbs max force on the stick). With boosted ailerons the forces needed in high speed dives would be much smaller and the roll rate determined by aerodynamic qualities, not how strong pilot there happens to be in the cpit.

-C+

[clerick]

... The P51s were easier to fly, not nearly as maneuverable as my P-38 and 15 mph slower...

What version of the 51 was actually slower than the 38?

[Plazus]

P38 > than everything else.

[10thmd]

From the recently acquired 364th FG history.  They flew 38s then 51s in the ETO with the 8th AF.  The pilot's name is Ken Nicholson.  he's referring to the 38J-25 or 38L with the power assisted controls.  Thought his comment regarding out rolling 190s was interesting.

"The P-38 was one of the worlds fastest diving airplanes.  Unfortunately it was Hell to pull out.  One of those experiences was enough.  By using servo tabs on the ailerons and rudders though it became one of the world's fastest rollers.  I've started after a FW190 in a roll and waited for him to finish  The P51s were easier to fly, not nearly as maneuverable as my P-38 and 15 mph slower, but they surely did alright above 15,000 feet.  I wound up with two and a share, but it seems to be a unique category because some of the aces introduce me as one of their 'half-aced' friends"

Nowhere in this did he state he rolled with the 190.

[drgondog]

What version of the 51 was actually slower than the 38?

The XP-51 through the A-36.  The only way a P-38 could fly faster than a P-51B through H was with flaps extended for the 51.  The 51B-H had 2/3 the Cd0 as the 38, entered drag rise at about .05 M higher, and was simply a LOT faster as the model went from P-51D to P-51H purely because of drag.

The 38 hit a brick wall at 425-430 no matter how much power they strapped on.

[JOACH1M]

Well, the NACA868 report states that the roll rate of fw190 starts to fall above 250mph and even a P-51 would outroll it above 350mph (with 50lbs max force on the stick). With boosted ailerons the forces needed in high speed dives would be much smaller and the roll rate determined by aerodynamic qualities, not how strong pilot there happens to be in the cpit.

-C+

Even the d9?

[Karnak]

Nowhere in this did he state he rolled with the 190.

Per the NACA chart, the P-38 will roll faster than the Fw190 at higher speeds.

Even the d9?

I am unaware of any improvements in roll rate for the Fw190D-9.  Were there any?

[pervert]

On phone right now cannot look it up 95% sure 190 has got electrically boosted control surfaces

[JOACH1M]

On phone right now cannot look it up 95% sure 190 has got electrically boosted control surfaces

This what I thought the d9 had... I may be wrong though

[pervert]

Might be flaps ? 

[Plazus]

What version of the 51 was actually slower than the 38?

I think the pilot was referring that the P38 was 15mph slower than the P51.

[Karnak]

On phone right now cannot look it up 95% sure 190 has got electrically boosted control surfaces

I have never heard of anything with boosted control surfaces, other than the P-38, in WWII.  I wouldn't be shocked if a bomber like the B-29 had them as I don't read as much about bombers, but I would have to see primary source documentation supporting the claim for a fighter.

[Guppy35]

Nowhere in this did he state he rolled with the 190.

The sentence previous was in reference to the 38 rolling ability.  His follow up sentence was in reference to following a 190 in a roll and finishing it before the 190.

[Guppy35]

The XP-51 through the A-36.  The only way a P-38 could fly faster than a P-51B through H was with flaps extended for the 51.  The 51B-H had 2/3 the Cd0 as the 38, entered drag rise at about .05 M higher, and was simply a LOT faster as the model went from P-51D to P-51H purely because of drag.

The 38 hit a brick wall at 425-430 no matter how much power they strapped on.

Remember the Luftwaffe aces shot down 38s faster then Lockheed could build them.  Wasn't that Heinrich Bartels who shot down 7 of the 19 38s that went down over Greece on November 15th and 17th of 43?   

I do believe that the pilot I quoted was referring to down low in the 38 in reference to the 51 speed.  As he'd flown 51Ds and 38s with the 364th, he was referring to his own experience in them.