Author Topic: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now  (Read 7572 times)

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2011, 09:39:35 AM »
If witnesses are correct it was amazing that he did get enough lift in the last seconds to get the plane away from the bleachers.  RIP Mr. Leeward and the others that were involved.

(Image removed from quote.)

A couple of things to note... Notice in the photo you posted that Mr. Leeland is not visible in the photo. In other photos, he is clearly slumped against the instrument panel. If he can't see out, he can't know where the aircraft is pointed. Leeland is obviously unconscious, due to GLOC. As several of us have mentioned, missing the grandstand was pure luck, or fate, or some higher power at work.

Note also that the g loading was severe enough to overpower the hydraulic cylinder and extend the tail wheel.... My understanding is that it requires g loading in excess of 9g to do that. So, this is strong evidence that Leeland was subjected to g forces of at least 9g, and very likely higher than that. Any pilot, especially a 74-year old pilot, will GLOC under that loading. He was unconscious immediately after the pitch up and the aircraft went where it did due to factors like torque, aileron and rudder trim.

I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Wayout

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2011, 11:12:43 AM »
Jimmy Leeward discussing the plane called “The Galloping Ghost".

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2011/09/18/news/doc4e74f9207b912230146063.txt
  For most people the sky is the limit.  For a pilot the sky is home.

Offline MotleyCH

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 633
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2011, 11:43:37 AM »
 :pray

Offline morfiend

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10444
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2011, 05:08:43 PM »
A couple of things to note... Notice in the photo you posted that Mr. Leeland is not visible in the photo. In other photos, he is clearly slumped against the instrument panel. If he can't see out, he can't know where the aircraft is pointed. Leeland is obviously unconscious, due to GLOC. As several of us have mentioned, missing the grandstand was pure luck, or fate, or some higher power at work.

Note also that the g loading was severe enough to overpower the hydraulic cylinder and extend the tail wheel.... My understanding is that it requires g loading in excess of 9g to do that. So, this is strong evidence that Leeland was subjected to g forces of at least 9g, and very likely higher than that. Any pilot, especially a 74-year old pilot, will GLOC under that loading. He was unconscious immediately after the pitch up and the aircraft went where it did due to factors like torque, aileron and rudder trim.

I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.


  I agree completely with this assesment. If you look at the picture it appears that the wings look deformed somewhat again highlighting the excessive G load.


  Sad and tragic event followed by a T28 the very next day.Mr Leeland will surely be missed.




   :salute

Offline Flipperk

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1185
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #64 on: September 18, 2011, 05:47:50 PM »
A couple of things to note... Notice in the photo you posted that Mr. Leeland is not visible in the photo. In other photos, he is clearly slumped against the instrument panel. If he can't see out, he can't know where the aircraft is pointed. Leeland is obviously unconscious, due to GLOC. As several of us have mentioned, missing the grandstand was pure luck, or fate, or some higher power at work.

Note also that the g loading was severe enough to overpower the hydraulic cylinder and extend the tail wheel.... My understanding is that it requires g loading in excess of 9g to do that. So, this is strong evidence that Leeland was subjected to g forces of at least 9g, and very likely higher than that. Any pilot, especially a 74-year old pilot, will GLOC under that loading. He was unconscious immediately after the pitch up and the aircraft went where it did due to factors like torque, aileron and rudder trim.

I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.


Unfortunately this is most likely what happened...as much as you want to believe he pulled up at the last second, everything points to the fact that he would not have been able to.
It is 2 Cents or .02 Dollars...NOT .02 Cents!

Offline xNOVAx

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 811
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2011, 06:25:01 PM »
I was there and witnessed the accident first hand this past Friday.. After seeing all the pictures and putting together what I saw/heard, I am 99% confident Jimmy was completely unconscious due to the excessive G load after the trim tab departed the aircraft.. The trim tab at 450mph is an absolutely critical piece if the airframe to keep the excess pressure off the stick. Even at 100mph if the trim tab isn't correctly set on the Cessna I fly, it requires a LOT of forward pressure on the yoke to stay level. Losing the trim tab at those speeds could EASILY overpower the pilot. I am almost positive that once the trim tab let go, the stick was thrown out of Jimmy's hands, and the sudden unexpected g-forces (some people are saying the telemetry read about 10g's instantly) caused him to lose consciousness and control of the plane all together. I didn't see any attempt to correct the path of flight, and the roll was probably due to the torque of the engine. It was just an absolute miracle the plane didn't end up in the grandstands.

I was about 300-350 yards away from the point of impact and it's not something I ever want to witness again. The sound and mental picture of the plane hitting the ground will be with me forever..  :(

The response to the situation however was amazing. The calm and orderly tending to the wounded was unlike anything I've ever seen. Even an old Vietnam era Huey that was on display fired up the engines and was the first helicopter on the scene taking people to the hospital. Amazing teamwork by all those that responded and they should all be commended.  :salute
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 07:05:54 PM by xNOVAx »


NOVA - Army of Muppets - Inactive

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return." -Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Wolfala

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4875
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #66 on: September 18, 2011, 06:57:11 PM »
Glad yr alright. Have too many fOlks I know close to this one.


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #67 on: September 18, 2011, 07:20:35 PM »
I was there and witnessed the accident first hand this past Friday.. After seeing all the pictures and putting together what I saw/heard, I am 99% confident Jimmy was completely unconscious due to the excessive G load after the trim tab departed the aircraft.. The trim tab at 450mph is an absolutely critical piece if the airframe to keep the excess pressure off the stick. Even at 100mph if the trim tab isn't correctly set on the Cessna I fly, it requires a LOT of forward pressure on the yoke to stay level. Losing the trim tab at those speeds could EASILY overpower the pilot. I am almost positive that once the trim tab let go, the stick was thrown out of Jimmy's hands, and the sudden unexpected g-forces (some people are saying the telemetry read about 10g's instantly) caused him to lose consciousness and control of the plane all together. I didn't see any attempt to correct the path of flight, and the roll was probably due to the torque of the engine. It was just an absolute miracle the plane didn't end up in the grandstands.

I was about 300-350 yards away from the point of impact and it's not something I ever want to witness again. The sound and mental picture of the plane hitting the ground will be with me forever..  :(

The response to the situation however was amazing. The calm and orderly tending to the wounded was unlike anything I've ever seen. Even an old Vietnam era Huey that was on display fired up the engines and was the first helicopter on the scene taking people to the hospital. Amazing teamwork by all those that responded and they should all be commended.  :salute

Wow! I'm glad you are safe. I can only imagine what you are feeling, having witnessed that crash close at hand...
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Dichotomy

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12386
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2011, 07:25:48 PM »
Nova... I'm sorry you had to see that but I'm happy you're okay. 
JG11 - Dicho37Only The Proud Only The Strong AH Players who've passed on :salute

Offline 2ADoc

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 523
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2011, 08:07:03 PM »
To everyone affected by this horrific accident, my condolences, my family has been thru airshow crashes before, I have watched my dad crash, he luckily made a semi recovery.  The first thing out of his mouth when I got to his plane was, " I kept it out of the crowd, tell your mom I am all right", which He wasn't but non the less, anyone who performs at air shows first priority is to keep the bad things out of the crowd.  If he was not able to do it I can assure he was trying with all that he had.  I will have the NTSB report along with the FAA report as soon as they come out.  I am sure that Mr. Leeward will be found not at fault for this.  I am truly thankful that it was not worse than it was, there was no fire.  Realistically when the people that get into any type of plane whether it is a J-3 Cub or an unlimited class racer, we take a chance of a failure, it is part of aviation, things break, we hope and pray that we can keep it away from the crowd, and keep spectators from getting hurt.  It is a part of aviation.  Again if, and I am sure that he was, incapacitated from the g forces, either thru being mashed down to the panel, or being completely unconscious his last thought was for the safety of the spectators, not for himself.  Let's face East and raise our glass for a departed aviator.
Takeoffs are optional, landings aren't
Vini Vedi Velcro
See Rule 4, 13, 14.

Offline Yeager

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10167
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #70 on: September 18, 2011, 09:25:19 PM »
Fully one third of that P-51s wings were modded off.  Crazy.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline NatCigg

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3336
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2011, 09:40:28 PM »
would the wings being chopped allow the plane to roll easier?

Offline Tupac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5056
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2011, 09:47:42 PM »
would the wings being chopped allow the plane to roll easier?

So you have less form and skin friction drag.

Less drag = more speed.
"It was once believed that an infinite number of monkeys, typing on an infinite number of keyboards, would eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare. However, with the advent of Internet messageboards we now know this is not the case."

Offline NatCigg

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3336
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2011, 09:56:38 PM »
watching the video the roll did not seem smooth? :headscratch: I think there is more to this story.

Offline curry1

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2321
Re: P51 Mustang into the crowd at the Reno Races just now
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2011, 10:11:59 PM »
watching the video the roll did not seem smooth? :headscratch: I think there is more to this story.

With the pilot pushed all the way forward by the G forces maybe he could have accidentally been pushing the stick.  Who knows?
Curry1-Since Tour 101