Should A20 loose it's F3 mode

[wil3ur]

That is the debate. Apparently there is a game-breaking issue here, if the game is broken to the point that Il2s were being used (quite successfully) as base defenders and mixing it up with far more capable aircraft and coming out the victor because of F3.


So, considering the giant uproar for and against both sides of this issue, its ramifications for other planes, etc, I would say that's pretty darned game-breaking. Not as in the game won't run, but as in how people play the game and how they are voicing their opinions.

Late War Tour 141 Statistics for wil3ur
        Kills In Kills Of Killed By Died In
Il-2      99       2      1        40


Late War Tour 141
Kills by wil3ur in an
Il-2 by model type
Model Type Kills Percent
A6M5b 2 2.020
B-25C 1 1.010
Bf 109G-14 1 1.010
Bf 109K-4 1 1.010
Bf 110C-4b 1 1.010
Bf 110G-2 2 2.020
F4F-4 1 1.010
F4U-1A 2 2.020
F4U-1D 6 6.061
F6F-5 5 5.051
FM2 2 2.020
Fw 190A-8 1 1.010
Fw 190D-9 3 3.030
Fw 190F-8 1 1.010
Il-2 1 1.010
Ki-61 1 1.010
LVTA2 10 10.101
LVTA4 2 2.020
M-18 5 5.051
M-3 3 3.030
M4A3(75) 3 3.030
Me 262 1 1.010
Ostwind 1 1.010
P-40C 1 1.010
P-47-D40 1 1.010
P-47N 2 2.020
P-51D 4 4.040
Panzer IV F 2 2.020
Panzer IV H 16 16.162
SeaFire 3 3.030
Spitfire Mk XVI 2 2.020
T-34/85 5 5.051
Tempest 1 1.010
Typhoon IB 1 1.010
Wirbelwind 4 4.040
Yak-9U 1 1.010
  99 Kills   

You can check the other tours, this is not a plane I normally fly.  However due to the amount of complaining about how F3 killed the IL2, I had to give it a shot.  They're still deadly, still great for defending bases.  The only thing that killed the IL2 as a base defender was moving it from the bomber hangar, which is usually left up.  Since FH's drop, the A20 is the logical replacement as a bomber capable of mixing it up air to air.  If you take the A20 away from the bomber hangar, you'll have people upping B26's for the same purpose.

What is more easy mode... fighting an A20 who uses F3 for SA, or squeeling about how F3 needs to be removed so you can have an easier time killing buffs?

[Jappa52]

It’s not THE issue but it does contribute to it. The availability for F3 mode on the IL, Stuka, A-20s allows people an unrealistic amount of SA and line of sight. People use this to do things with the aircraft that would never have been attempted. It’s arcade-ish and detracts from what this game is all about.

I understand the arguments against realism and even agree with some of them. I also see why HTC has the game modeled the way it is but that doesn’t mean that there’s not another way to do it. I think Krusty’s suggestion would be a positive change and a small step towards improving the game play.

[Beefcake]

This post reminds me of the Pre-Combat Trim Whines. There is nothing wrong with the system as it is now, it's a good balance of SA representing multiple crew position. We don't need some super complicated view system, we just need people to man up and admit they screwed up and lost to a bomber.

[Slade]

I don't see it as a game breaking thing at all.  Just an improvement.

Do you think some of those that are VERY polarized to keep F3 use it in a gamey way?

[Krusty]

There actually is a bit wrong with the system. Is totally removing it the answer? I don't know. I think it would definitely benefit from a reworking of the camera angle and position while in F3 mode. Move the camera in so that you're not showing anything above or below the plane in question without looking up or down that way. It's too all-encompasing with the 180-degree hemisphere of perfect SA because of the position and wide angle of the camera. I would say maybe even reposition the camera so that the spine and tail and wings of your plane take up a large chunk of the bottom of your screen. Same when looking back. You could adjust with F8 mode and so forth, but not so easily on the fly and fighting like a fighterplane in this mode would be greatly reduced, while maintaining the ability to see enemy planes further out that may threaten you.


So yes, there is something wrong, but no removing it may not be the answer. There are a number of suggest/ideas to help resolve the problem without removing the benefit. Just moving the camera is probably the easiest solution by far.

[Slade]

Just moving the camera is probably the easiest solution by far.

Nice suggestion. 

There seem to be so many good ideas on how to improve this aspect of the game.

[Shane]

Nice suggestion. 

There seem to be so many good ideas on how to improve this aspect of the game.

the simplest has been repeatedly suggested... can't fire guns in F3 mode. 

This preserves the crew SA aspect and removes the primary complaint about F3 in the Il/A-20 ("buffs as fighters with an unfair line of sight (under nose) and ability to fire."  This would also take away the advantages when going after Gv's - it's not hard strafe in F3.

[Vinkman]

Give me full crew functionality such as con reports and auto gunners and then we'll talk.

 

Press a button and in 8 milli seconds you're in the tail gunner position. Take 3 seconds to scan the sky behind you from deck to 40K alt, and 4 miles behind the plane.
Press another button and you're in the top turret for another 3 seconds to scan the sky above the plane.
Press another button and you're in the ball turret for another 3 seconds to scan the sky below.
Press and you're back in the pilot seat.

9.024 seconds to get complete spherical awareness of a 4 mile radius around the plane.

There isn't a crew that ever flew any bomber that ever exsisted that could translate that quality of info to a pilot, over a squalk-box intercom in 9.024 seconds.

A fighter traveling 100 mph faster then your bomber will take 2 minutes and 3 soconds to close to within 1000 yards from 4 miles out. So all you have to do is make your 9.024 sec loop through the gunner positions once every 90 seconds and your covered. And if the Buff didn't have tail gunner, or belly gunner, than you should be blind to planes attacking from that position. In such cases F3 is providing the function of crewman that never exsisted!

This "SA in a bomber that the crew would have provided" excuse is the weekest of all excuses for needing F3 in a buff.

[mechanic]

it takes no time at all to be silent and let the pilot assume that thre is nothing to report....unlike having to actualy check a gunner possition and realise there is nothing to report there yourself. 9 seconds is more than enough time for a crew to report a contact to the pilot unless there is a con to report from every single viewpoint

[Vulcan]

Too overly simple. Much like icons, F3 serves a purpose. You can't remove F3 without supplementing some other feature that does what F3 does.

That is: It gives you the benefit of multiple eyes all scanning the skies in different directions on planes with multiple crew and gunner positions.

Yet crew didn't have perfect views of the skies, more than often they were behind think glass, blocked by metal frames, wearing goggles, huddled in the freezing cold.

[Krusty]

Regardless, they all communicated as a team over intercom sometimes with a fire control coordinator telling them which attacks were coming in and from what angles (so that even if a waist gunner was on the other side of the attack, he could get a parting shot in as the enemy flew past).

Surely you must admit, warts and all that the combined vision and situational awareness of a bomber crew was far greater than just that of the pilot's seat?

[Rob52240]

who the heck really cares in the first place?????

It's essentially a Boston 3 and it has eyes facing more than just forward by default.  Lets give this topic a rest

PLEASE!

I think this is just another wirble envy thread.

[TheRhino]

who the heck really cares in the first place?????

It's essentially a Boston 3 and it has eyes facing more than just forward by default.  Lets give this topic a rest

PLEASE!

I think this is just another wirble envy thread.

[icepac]

I find it funny that the guys who spend so much time only talking about F3 mode for air to air are the same guys who I see using F3 to bomb CVs.

[The Fugitive]

who the heck really cares in the first place?????

It's essentially a Boston 3 and it has eyes facing more than just forward by default.  Lets give this topic a rest

PLEASE!

I think this is just another wirble envy thread.

Evidently a number of people really care, hence the threads that are posted and grow quickly as this one did. If YOU don't care, don't comment and move on.