The Condor Legion Vs The International Brigades

[EVZ]

Has anyone ever considered a scenario built around the Spanish Civil War? Ratas (I-16) vs Emils (109E)? Yaks? Ju87s ? etc ... Could be fun? 

[TwinTail]

Yak9's are not in the same league as the I16 or 109E4

[EVZ]

Yak9's are not in the same league as the I16 or 109E4

No, but not an unreasonable match up to the stukas.

[Krusty]

The I-16 we have is the closest possible, and even It's way too advanced. The power and speed on our I-16 is very much improved over the "type 5" that was common during the Spanish Civil war.


To even come CLOSE to pretending to replicate the Spanish Civil War, you'd need to have D3As fighting D3As.

No other planes, save the WW1 planes, are slow enough to come close. Please remember the Spanish Civil War consisted mostly of biplanes fighting biplanes, the majority of late 1920s design.

Here's a good link depicting which planes took part, even if in a limited role:

http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/did.html

It's not really related to WW2 other than it was a precursor and shaped things to come.

[EVZ]

The power and speed on our I-16 is very much improved over the "type 5" that was common during the Spanish Civil war.

True, but then our 109 is also improved considerably. The spanish civil war was a very romantic, idealistic, significant, and far reaching conflict that is not well known or understood these days ... and WWII is rapidly becoming a terribly misunderstood conflict. Focusing the attention of the people I see involved in these scenarios on it might prove to be interesting and rewarding ...

It's not really related to WW2 other than it was a precursor and shaped things to come.

And you think the precursor that shaped everything to come isn't RELATED ? Hitlers grasp on power was solidified by the conflict, as was his resolve to destroy the soviet union. And THAT is what brought about WWII ... NOT fighting the british/french/usa. Co-ordinated Luftwaffe and Panzer tactics were developed there and only -REFINED- in Poland. German Technology was tested there. A NEW style of warfare emerged there. AND the confrontation between an Elite Conservative Aristocracy and the Ideals of Progressive Socialism, that is STILL at issue in todays world, were defined there. 

[Krusty]

WW1 was a precursor and shaped things to come in WW2 far more than the SCW did. Yet you don't pretend there's a direct comparison between WW1 and WW2, do you? Then why pretend there's a direct comparison between SCW and WW2?


If you want to match 109Es vs I-16 type 28s, etc. you don't give it a name (SCW) which it doesn't at all resemble. You choose one of the many historical times during the German invasion of Soviet Russia where these planes actually met, instead.

And then you get your yaks, too. Only, later on, in a setup with a later date.

[EVZ]

WW1 was a precursor and shaped things to come in WW2 far more than the SCW did.

No ... a popular misconception, developed by Hess and the Gobler to JUSTIFY German aggression to the rest of the world. THINK PLEASE - Britian and France impose harsh surrender terms on the Kaiser, so Hitler gets even by invading POLAND ??? SOVIET RUSSIA was the target, and MANY PEOPLE all over the world were Praying and Paying for Hitler to END the threat menacing the priveledged classes. They TRIED very hard to keep the western democracys neutral. After it became evident the Allies WOULD invade ... Hitler STILL decided to focus on RUSSIA and Sacrifice Germany in the hopes of eliminating the socialist threat. He wasn't -CRAZY- as is the popular misconception, he just had Prioritys.

Please keep in mind WHO wrote the -HISTORY- books. 

If you want to match 109Es vs I-16 type 28s, etc. you don't give it a name (SCW) which it doesn't at all resemble. You choose one of the many historical times during the German invasion of Soviet Russia where these planes actually met, instead.

Again, no ... There was never any REAL question of air superiority on the eastern front. The Russians focused on Close Support and Logistical Strikes. They tried to avoid luftwaffe operational areas.

[Brooke]

EVZ, here's a book that I thought was excellent, and you might like it, too:  No Simple Victory, by Davies.

[EVZ]

EVZ, here's a book that I thought was excellent, and you might like it, too:  No Simple Victory, by Davies.

I havn't read that ... But it's on my list. I understand it's a bit provocative. People these days have some VERY strange ideas regarding WWII and the political & economic realities of the 1930s. 

[Brooke]

I don't think it's provocative in the sense of making oddball conclusions.  It's provocative in that it covers the ETO in complete detail, not just selectively from the western allies' point of view, and he very thoroughly supports his points.  It covers things that are indisputable fact yet are not all that well known by Americans (and apparently not at all known by the media) with respect to WWII.

It is a great book by a notable historian.  I think that anyone interested in WWII should give it a read or listen to the audio book.

[Krusty]

Puh-LEEZE... don't pull that fluff on me mate. I'm not talking about Hess or Goerbles. I'm talking from an overall European history on a large scale. The international politics of WW2 go back to the fall of the Ottoman Empire and even further. You could even say to the fall of Rome.

I know a little on the topic. More than a little.

It still has NOTHING to do with the reason you want to make up a fake planeset that has NOTHING to do with the SCW and call it an SCW event. You want to use I-16s vs 109E4s, you set up a Barbarossa scenario. You don't pretend it's SCW.

It's just that simple. And it's also quite fun. We've had early eastern front scenarios in the FSO. Those I-16s ripped a fleet of Ju88s to shreds, much to everyone's surprise. They were very tough contenders all around, in the well-practiced hands of AH pilots.

[EVZ]

The international politics of WW2 go back to the fall of the Ottoman Empire and even further. You could even say to the fall of Rome. I know a little on the topic.

Sorry, no ... The Nazi party was started (it didn't just crawl out from under a rock) and Hitler was placed in power to accomplish ONE THING ... The elimination of  Soviet Socialism. Historical Influences, Racial Superiority, WWI resentments, the 1,000 year reich, etc. were all just icing on the cake aimed at justifying actions and attracting followers. If you want to understand the human condition? you must first realise that about 90% of RECORDED history is a fairy tale ... Probably the BIGGEST and most easily exposed fairy tale in WWII is Bernard Montgomery.

The Spanish Civil War is the First Act of this Play.

 

[Tank-Ace]

Yak9's are not in the same league as the I16 or 109E4

No, but not an unreasonable match up to the stukas.

!!!!!!


Am I the only one who noticed this?

[Devil 505]

!!!!!!


Am I the only one who noticed this?

I noticed, but some things are just too stupid for words to convey.

[Krusty]

Sorry, no ... The Nazi party was started (it didn't just crawl out from under a rock) and Hitler was placed in power to accomplish ONE THING ... The elimination of  Soviet Socialism. Historical Influences, Racial Superiority, WWI resentments, the 1,000 year reich, etc. were all just icing on the cake aimed at justifying actions and attracting followers. If you want to understand the human condition? you must first realise that about 90% of RECORDED history is a fairy tale ... Probably the BIGGEST and most easily exposed fairy tale in WWII is Bernard Montgomery.

The Spanish Civil War is the First Act of this Play.

 

Stay in school... A few more years and you might gain some perspective.

You have a very focused myopic view of events and only want to put forth some agenda that the rest of the world has it wrong. Okay, so good luck going around proving that in years to come. I wish you well. Frankly I don't care. Your comments about the planes themselves have hurt your credibility on the matter, let alone your historical analysis.

I'm done here. Turns out there's no discussion to be had.