World of Aircraft...vs...Aces High...We need to WIN

[Dadsguns]

 

[Kazaa]

Tire coding is not that difficult.  It is all about the friction coefficient.  Once derived, it can be modified with rather simple equations to compensate for heat, track conditions, wear, and so on.  Tire sidewall flex is a separate component which can also be represented with one value.

Getting all of it down to where it can be coded is the hard part.

There is nothing more difficult to model than flight.  Take everything you would need to model a car, and it is also done for flight, then add all the dynamic aerodynamic equations on top of it to model flight.

I've come to the conclusion that solid arguments can be made from both sides of the fence. They're both very difficult in their own respects.

Skuzzy, you said that: "tire coding is not that difficult." I guess it all boils down to how much fidelity you want. On the racing side of the simulation genre, getting the most accurate tire model is like going on a quest for the holy grail.

Here's a video that may interest you. I'm sure you'll have some good input to add after watching this: http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Charles/Brian-Beckman-The-Physics-in-Games-Real-Time-Simulation-Explained

[Shuffler]

I disagree simply because you say so. I've known some out of touch people over the years but your finger is so far from the pulse on so many issues, it seems to be pressed firmly against the foot of the coffin.
AH has nothing to worry about because you say so? No. AH has plenty to worry about. It's engine and code are over 10 years old and even 10 years ago it looked dated. HTC refuses to modernize anything, because it can't? Who knows. Oh yeah, because it would lose customers on an OS that is.... over 10 years old - shocker.
Maybe WoP hasn't gotten it right with gameplay, but soon, a game will and if it isn't AH, then AH is dead and your finger will be on the foot of the coffin, looking for the pulse and telling the world everything is fine.

If your so put out by AH you would be better off over there. I simply can't see why your even still here. Obviously your the instant gratification type.

I feel I have a much better grasp of the situation than you'll ever be capable of........

[VonMessa]

Over 11 pages here...

I'm still trying to figure out WTF the graphics-detractors are complaining about  

Are they b1tching because of the scenery, the aiplanes, the explosions, the clouds?

While in the heat of a 200+ MPH dogfight, what the eff are you looking at specifically that lacks in graphic detail at that speed?

Spend less time scratching your balls and examining the Daises and more time involved in a conflict in-game.

Folks ask for realism, yet have no idea what the realism of a 200+ MPH dogfight at 3+ G while fighting vertigo, nausea and unconsciousness is really all about.   This is not even factoring in the penny-like taste of fear in the mouth while this is all going on.

Realism?  I doubt that any pilot in WWII had any time to look out the window at the scenery while in flight, especially when involved in combat.

The amount of rudeness to the company that hosts this (fairly open and honest) BBS is astounding.  There is nothing like someone hosting a party with free beer and the guests wind up pissing all over the house like dogs...

[PR3D4TOR]

I think there's a significant difference between being a guest in "someones home" and being a paying customer in a business establishment. I for one think paying customers have every right to comment and even criticize the product/service they're paying for if they feel it is less than it should be. Maybe it's just me being too American.

[VonMessa]

I think there's a significant difference between being a guest in "someones home" and being a paying customer in a business establishment. I for one think paying customers have every right to comment and even criticize the product/service they're paying for if they feel it is less than it should be. Maybe it's just me being too American.

Last time I checked, there was not a single charge for the use of the BBS...

As for the services the customers are paying for?

Continued payment, in most courts of law, implies customer satisfaction at some level as there is always the option of cancelling the service at a speed that will prevent the door from hitting you in the arse on the way out...

[dedalos]

I am just confused why we have to worry about something better coming along and taking HT out of business.  If something better does come we should welcome it.  If AH is the better product, even better.  Why is everyone so concerned?    It is up to HT to create the better product and as long as they do they have nothing to worry about.

The only thing we need to worry about is HT having no competition and deciding it is time to relax a bit more  

[Skuzzy]

I've come to the conclusion that solid arguments can be made from both sides of the fence. They're both very difficult in their own respects.

Skuzzy, you said that: "tire coding is not that difficult." I guess it all boils down to how much fidelity you want. On the racing side of the simulation genre, getting the most accurate tire model is like going on a quest for the holy grail.

Here's a video that may interest you, I'm sure you'll find his work laughable: http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Charles/Brian-Beckman-The-Physics-in-Games-Real-Time-Simulation-Explained

I was trying to be careful how I stated what I said.  The coding part is not that difficult.  It is the modeling that is difficult.  For instance, friction coefficients would be used to indicate traction for a tire.  To derive that number one would need tire compound, tread design, ambient and track temperatures, tire pressure, tire wear, tire RPM, and so on.

Once you have all the variables, you do not need to use them in real time as many of them are static.  Once you have derived the friction coefficients, for any given range of variables, it then becomes a matter of coding simpler equations to implement the dynamic forces.  The force vectors would apply and manage the friction coefficient value as needed.

I am not attempting to make it sound simple, but it is also not quite as complex as it seems to be.  The real time would be spent gathering the data and implementing a decent table of coefficients to allow for a dynamic model.

Anyone doing any type of work towards modeling any real world component is going to get my respect.  I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to model a number of things in code.  None of it is easy to get done, but once done it becomes simpler.

I think there's a significant difference between being a guest in "someones home" and being a paying customer in a business establishment. I for one think paying customers have every right to comment and even criticize the product/service they're paying for if they feel it is less than it should be. Maybe it's just me being too American.

Go into a restaurant.  Eat the meal, then start raving about how bad the service and food is.  Are you going to be surprised when the manager asks you to leave?  Being an American does not give any one the right to be a jerk in a place of business.

No one has the "right" to be derogatory or disrespectful.  Businesses have as much right to protect themselves from abusers as you have to protect your home from the same kind of people.

[Shuffler]

I think there's a significant difference between being a guest in "someones home" and being a paying customer in a business establishment. I for one think paying customers have every right to comment and even criticize the product/service they're paying for if they feel it is less than it should be. Maybe it's just me being too American.

Why complain...... there is an area just for suggestions called the "Wishlist".There is also an area just for bug reports. If there is some critical problem you can even contact the office directly and talk to a real live individual. Most everyone at AH is very accessable.

Do you buy a car then want to haul heavy loads and complain? No... I think you'd buy what suits you and your purpose.

If your pot is empty and you have nothing to add to the conversation, your complaints will just come across as bellyaching more times than not.

Respect goes both ways..... Skuzzy wields a lot of power on these boards yet does not come across heavy handed. Even when blatant disrespect is shown to him and the Company. He only acts when, after due warning, some do not take heed.

I am just confused why we have to worry about something better coming along and taking HT out of business.  If something better does come we should welcome it.  If AH is the better product, even better.  Why is everyone so concerned?    It is up to HT to create the better product and as long as they do they have nothing to worry about.

The only thing we need to worry about is HT having no competition and deciding it is time to relax a bit more 

 

[PR3D4TOR]

Abuse, sure, but if you pay for a service and you feel it's less than what you expected or you think they should improve their service should you not inform the supplier of said services before you start shopping around for alternatives? Of course everyone here could just take their money and leave, but I think most people here see something great in AH and want it to succeed, but at the same time see that it could be much better (in their opinion).

[Kazaa]

Cheers Skuzzy, thanks a lot.

[PR3D4TOR]

When Gaijin enters the MMO scene with World of Planes AH could be facing real competition like it hasn't seen since Warbirds. Gaijin has the whole Il-2 franchise to build on with hundreds of accurate models ready made and an excellent graphics engine. I've signed up for the beta, so I'll see what's what.

[Lusche]

Abuse, sure, but if you pay for a service and you feel it's less than what you expected or you think they should improve their service should you not inform the supplier of said services before you start shopping around for alternatives?

I have never seen anyone getting PNG'd for informing HTC about any problems or not fulfilled expectations.

[Shuffler]

When Gaijin enters the MMO scene with World of Planes AH could be facing real competition like it hasn't seen since Warbirds. Gaijin has the whole Il-2 franchise to build on with hundreds of accurate models ready made and an excellent graphics engine. I've signed up for the beta, so I'll see what's what.

Pretty

Doubt it will be competition for this game. Might be competition for other "Pretty" games.

Time will tell.

[Stoney]

I really don't even see the need to make it a competition between the games.  WoT scratches an itch.  It isn't a tank simulator.  WoWP will scratch an itch for some, whereas some people will probably be disgusted by it.  Given what I know about WoT, I can't even imagine how well it will translate into airplanes.  What I do know, is that a rock/paper/scissors airplane game won't satisfy those looking for a more realistic WWII flight sim.  Given the xenophobia that surrounds WoT these days, nationalistic fervor will hit a fevered pitch when it comes time to set P-51 vs. La-7 vs. Spitfire vs. FW-190.  So really, AH2 will maintain its position as the preeminent WWII flight sim.  Those people looking for a more arcade-ish flying game that uses historical WWII aircraft may find WoWP more to their liking, but I figure those people don't really play AH2 anyway.  Especially when the game has to "balance" the dominant uber performing aircraft with their peers, since its a rock/paper/scissors type of game, versus the hard data modelling of aircraft in AH2.  HTC doesn't have to worry about how well the P-51 performs compared to other aircraft since it strives to make them perform as life-like as possible anyway.  WoWP, on the other hand, may nerf or buff various aircraft away from their historical performance in order to achieve game balance. 

So again, I don't really see a situation where you have to say one game is better than the other.  Its seems more like apples and oranges to me.  That being said, sure, the two games may compete for the $15/month of a player, but not because one is better than the other--but because the player is looking for a different type of game.  I can see WoWP being a fun game, but it will never approach the realism found in AH2 by design.  Different strokes for different folks.