Collisions

[EVZ]

In a good rolling scissors fight,  - Collisions do occur in this situation.

Ok ... also without intending any disrespect ... What % of AH players would you say engage in this type of fight, or maybe I should say CAN engage in this type of fight ? I'd guess we're once again talking about the (around) 10% that have some real idea of what's going on and HOW the game works.   

This is where "most" of my collisions occur as well. Rarely do I let someone collide with me when they decide to HO... and even more rarely do I accept a HO.

But YOU are not exactly the AVERAGE player, are you...? I'm suggesting that the game SHOULD be structured for THEM, not the relatively small percentage of advanced pilots. The HO is definitely the most COMMON attack mode, anyone want to argue about that? It's essentially realistic, it requires the participation of BOTH parties (can be easily declined as you are aware). I have said that -MOST- collisions occur because of it and I still think that's a fact ...

From the limited experiences I have had with you, you fly mostly bombers, and drive tanks and other GV's. This is indicated by your stats as well.  I have yet you meet you in a fighter.

I fly a lot of attack missions too, Deack, Ords, Radar, etc... and I encounter plenty of defensive aircraft, who more often than not, attempt a HO (or if they have an alt advantage, require that I meet their B&Z attack, which can easily turn into a HO.)

But... if most of your air-to-air combat has been head on passes, or longer range shots... you are missing out on a big part of the game, and its tactics.  If you are unfamiliar with close quarters dogfighting, I can understand why you dont see the reason for the collision model as it is.

What you call dogfighting was a WWI tactic ... Romantic notions aside, it occurred During WWII, but it wasn't common ... Some brief encounters during the BOB, (WWI Ace Goering had some illusions about "Shooting the British Airforce out of the sky"), an occasional encounter over Germany or France (with one or both parties usually low on fuel and ammo). Happened even less in the pacific. If I want to fly WWI, I'll go elsewhere and do it in the appropriate aircraft.

It -IS- amusing that the HORDE HATERS, are usually the dogfighter types who are opposed to the disciplined, objective oriented MISSIONS, typical of WWII operations.

[AKP]

Ok ... also without intending any disrespect ... What % of AH players would you say engage in this type of fight, or maybe I should say CAN engage in this type of fight ? I'd guess we're once again talking about the (around) 10% that have some real idea of what's going on and HOW the game works.

I would say that % is higher.  But that point can be argued by both sides.

 
But YOU are not exactly the AVERAGE player, are you...? I'm suggesting that the game SHOULD be structured for THEM, not the relatively small percentage of advanced pilots. The HO is definitely the most COMMON attack mode, anyone want to argue about that? It's essentially realistic, it requires the participation of BOTH parties (can be easily declined as you are aware). I have said that -MOST- collisions occur because of it and I still think that's a fact ...

 
Actually... I do consider myself average here.  I have no delusions that I am good by any means.  I learn every time I go up.  I know as soon as I make a mistake too, and I usually know I am going to get shot down before it happens.  

And while the HO may be the most common tactic for the inexperienced player... is it not realistic or the most common in terms of air to air combat... at least if you want to live.  A head on attack exposes you to your opponents guns.  You are relying on being able to hit him before his rounds hit you.  Its about a 50/50 tactic.  More common and more effective in air to air combat (assuming you dont WANT to die)... is to out maneuver your opponent so that you can shoot at him... but he cannot shoot at you.  This is the reason for pilots STILL learning to dogfight.  It is not a romantic memory of WW1.  Many of the guys I "fly" with here, are retired combat pilots.  They will tell... and show you the same thing.  I cringe every time I have to practice against Mace or Rodent.  But... I learn from each sortie, and they are good teachers.

The one thing that changed my flying style from when I first started, to now... is I want to land each sortie.  Kills or no kills... my objective is to make it home.  Unfortunately, there is a good number of players that still play with the mindset of "If I get shot down, no big deal.. I will just take off again."  Which is ok... its just a game.  But if you play with the intent of, "I want to do my job... and get home"... your desire to be involved in a HO evaporates.

EDIT: This being an advanced flight combat simulation... I would argue that those who are average, or inexperienced, need to get better.  The bar here is set high.  It is set high for a reason.  

I fly a lot of attack missions too, Deack, Ords, Radar, etc... and I encounter plenty of defensive aircraft, who more often than not, attempt a HO (or if they have an alt advantage, require that I meet their B&Z attack, which can easily turn into a HO.)

Dont play their game... learn to maneuver and avoid.

What you call dogfighting was a WWI tactic ... Romantic notions aside, it occurred During WWII, but it wasn't common ... Some brief encounters during the BOB, (WWI Ace Goering had some illusions about "Shooting the British Airforce out of the sky"), an occasional encounter over Germany or France (with one or both parties usually low on fuel and ammo). Happened even less in the pacific. If I want to fly WWI, I'll go elsewhere and do it in the appropriate aircraft.

Again... it was quite common during WW2.  It only stopped being common with the advent of air-to-air missiles.  Dogfighting and wingman tactics were essential in both theaters.  However, I am not going to argue that with you.  You are entitled to your opinion.

It -IS- amusing that the HORDE HATERS, are usually the dogfighter types who are opposed to the disciplined, objective oriented MISSIONS, typical of WWII operations.

On the contrary...  FSO is a perfect example too.  Each frame is a combination of objective oriented missions, and defensive missions.... Typical of WWII operations.  It is a ONE LIFE EVENT... so people fly more "like" they would in real life than in the main arenas.  In the 2 years I have been flying in FSO, I can count on one hand the number of times I have been "HO'ed".  More often than not, the engagements between escorts and defenders turn into dogfights.  It is a great example of historical WW2 action, and is the premier event in Aces High.  At this point, I consider flying in the MA's practice for FSO.  If we are flying our favorite planes, we are practicing wingman tactics.  But if its Thursday or Friday, we are in the plane we were assigned in FSO.... both in the MA, and in the DA for about 2 -3 hours prior to the event on Friday.

Take a step out of Mid War.  Sure... the same dweebery goes on in Late War too... but there are some VERY good players there.  Join an FSO squad (you dont have to leave your main arena squad to do this by the way).  It's about as real as this game gets.  Killshooter is off...  one life event... planned missions.  Some of us spend hours planning a single strike mission... and the side CiC's can spend days working out who gets which plane, who is attacking, who is defending.  It will change the way you look at the whole game.  

In any case... enjoy what you do.  And in the end... it IS just a game.

[RTHolmes]

I only play in LWMA and people attempting to joust is actually pretty rare, and easily avoided.

like someone mentioned earlier, most collisions that I see come from slow, flat scissors.

[Karnak]

At least in my experience, the HO is not the most common attack.  The most common, by far, is an attack from the rear.

[Ack-Ack]

What you call dogfighting was a WWI tactic ... Romantic notions aside, it occurred During WWII, but it wasn't common ... Some brief encounters during the BOB, (WWI Ace Goering had some illusions about "Shooting the British Airforce out of the sky"), an occasional encounter over Germany or France (with one or both parties usually low on fuel and ammo). Happened even less in the pacific. If I want to fly WWI, I'll go elsewhere and do it in the appropriate aircraft.

Your knowledge of aerial combat and its history and usage is just as vast as your knowledge of the collision system, which is just a nice way of saying it's "nil". 

One thing though has become crystal clear though, the reason for the majority of the collisions you suffer.  You lack knowledge in proper merge tactics and it results in most of your collisions because all you do is maneuver for the head on shot and keep firing in a virtual game of chicken.  If one doesn't die by the HO, then one of you will die by the collision.  You should see a trainer, learn some ACM and proper merge tactics and you'll see the number of collisions you suffer dramatically decline.

ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

At least in my experience, the HO is not the most common attack.  The most common, by far, is an attack from the rear.

Just as it was in real life, majority of those killed never saw their attacker bounce them from behind.

ack-ack

[Drano]

At least in my experience, the HO is not the most common attack.  The most common, by far, is an attack from the rear.

Although it'd be hard to argue the HO attack is by far the most common attack for the newb. How many times have you had a guy spraying at your spinner from 1500 out and once you've reversed and killed him 10 seconds later you never heard of him? It happens to me almost nightly. But it is what it is. That hasn't changed in like forever and it likely won't moving forward. Newbs use this attack because they don't know any better. As AKAK said--seek training and this will go away. This entire game doesn't need to get dumbed down because some 2 weeker doesn't want to take the time to learn ACM. It's hard. The learning curve IS STEEP. If this was a "problem" with customers" I'd draw your attention to the just passed 13th birthday of this sim that was preceded by others of the same genre for several years. That speaks for itself.

To get anywhere near the neighborhood of proficient in fighter tactics one has to spend hundreds or thousands of hours actually IN a fighter. Driving a tank isn't gonna get you there. Manning a field gun isn't gonna get you there. Flying a bombers isn't gonna get you there. Flying a fighter--as a bomber--isn't gonna get you there. It takes time. Period. Guys that have problems with collisions are a small number of people most often in the newb group. They haven't figured it out so they fly into things. Guys like EVZ, while he likes to talk a big game, like or not falls into this group. He drives a tank or mans a gun a vast majority of his time, flies a fighter plane a tiny ammount of time relatively and I guess he flies into things a lot which frustrates the crap out of him. There's a reason for that and it's not the game. An attitude adjustment would have to precede any sort of training or the progression to the next level will never happen.

BTW I thought I should report to the group--I had a collision just the other night. God almighty yes! I was in the process or roping a C205 flown by a guy that's been around a bit. It was getting dark so visibility wasn't the best. I topped out and started down waiting for his nose to drop so I could put a burst into his canopy but I kinda lost sight of his plane against a dark patch of ground. I hit him as I passed and took damage and subsequently continued straight down to meet terra firma. I flew into the guy. Duh. No biggie. I picked up the shattered pieces of my life, got another plane and found and killed the guy in a straight up turnfight on the deck a few minutes later. That flaps out, scissors kind. Good fight too.

[VonMessa]

Your knowledge of aerial combat and its history and usage is just as vast as your knowledge of the collision system, which is just a nice way of saying it's "nil". 

One thing though has become crystal clear though, the reason for the majority of the collisions you suffer.  You lack knowledge in proper merge tactics and it results in most of your collisions because all you do is maneuver for the head on shot and keep firing in a virtual game of chicken.  If one doesn't die by the HO, then one of you will die by the collision.  You should see a trainer, learn some ACM and proper merge tactics and you'll see the number of collisions you suffer dramatically decline.

ack-ack

I am compelled to agree with every word of that statement.
So will anyone that flies in the MW and engages with EVZ.
Most of the encounters with him involve him trying to force the HO shot as much as possible.
The rest of the time is spent listening to him whining about how it's "BS" that there was a collision during the HO attempt and that both planes should have died from it.

If you do not believe it, go see for yourself.

Not a personal attack, but unadulterated truth garnered from experience flying in that arena.

[Karnak]

I am compelled to agree with every word of that statement.
So will anyone that flies in the MW and engages with EVZ.
Most of the encounters with him involve him trying to force the HO shot as much as possible.
The rest of the time is spent listening to him whining about how it's "BS" that there was a collision during the HO attempt and that both planes should have died from it.

If you do not believe it, go see for yourself.

Not a personal attack, but unadulterated truth garnered from experience flying in that arena.

So, in EVZ's case the HO very well may be by far the most common attack he sees, but that is due to the common participant in all of his fights, him.

[VonMessa]

So, in EVZ's case the HO very well may be by far the most common attack he sees, but that is due to the common participant in all of his fights, him.

Absolutely accurate.

Since it is a valid tactic in his mind (which it sometimes may be, dependent upon circumstances), it will not change.

Saying that it happened in WWII vindicates it in his mind and therefore, it is usually the first tactic employed at first merge.

Usually easy to defeat, but sometimes worth taking a chance upon, just to hear him whine about it...

[EVZ]

I would say that % is higher.

It could be ... I'm just making a general approximation, to illustrate my point. Which is: that the present collision model is structured and understood by a small minority of players and DOES provide them some advantage. It is disliked and misunderstood by the majority of players

And while the HO may be the most common tactic for the inexperienced player... is it not realistic or the most common in terms of air to air combat... at least if you want to live.  A head on attack exposes you to your opponents guns. You are relying on being able to hit him before his rounds hit you.  Its about a 50/50 tactic.

Plenty of experienced players rely on the HO attack to open combat ... The difference being that the experienced player may have added a few tricks to the move in hopes of forcing the opponent out of position, and MAY break off if they don't work. Then there are the guys having a bad day (week, month) and getting shot down repeatedly, who KNOW the odds, but revert to the HO since 50/50 is BETTER than anything else they can manage. I do get a kick out of a certain player posting here who has 2 moves (HO and Run to ACK) telling me how lame I am.

As for realistic ... standard escort doctrine was to TURN INTO any direct attack on the escort ... German flyers seldom had the time or fuel to maneuver for a BOUNCE and ALWAYS either attacked the escort first or designated elements to do so. Doctrine also denied pursuit of enemy fighters and dictated immediate return to escort position when the threat had been forced out of attack position (NO FURBALLING).

[RTHolmes]

the model does not give anyone "an advantage".

HTC should not be modelling anything badly, just because some players dont understand.

skilled players do not resort to the HO/joust as their Plan A, they do not need to.

turning into an attacking aircraft was and is a standard tactic. it is generally not done in order to set up a HO/joust, but to deny the attacker angles, and to give you options.


buy a copy of Shaw.

[Karnak]

Turning into the attack does not mean doing an HO.  If you evade away from an attack it is much easier for the attacker to pull in on your tail than if you evade into an attack.

[EVZ]

This is the reason for pilots STILL learning to dogfight.  It is not a romantic memory of WW1.

Pilots still learn to dogfight because it keeps them confident and efficient, not because anybody expects they will ever use the skill. This was discovered quite some time ago ... when they took away the guns, moral and efficiency suffered. VERY LITTLE $$$ is actually spent on such training and ? I know of NO current tactical plans for either attack or defense that incorporate "dogfighting." EXPERIENCE dictates that it's better to be prepared for the unexpected ... and SHOULD it happen, we will be ... I approve, but lets keep it in perspective ... this isn't hollywood.

if you play with the intent of, "I want to do my job... and get home"... your desire to be involved in a HO evaporates.

Depends on the job ... PLAYING the game COMPLETELY, (to win the war) will necessitate that you accept MANY missions that may require you to confront HO attacks or execute them ... If you just want to fly around and furball, that's fine, enjoy ... But that's entertainment, not involvement. It may ALSO require that you spend time in a tank or a gun or a C-47 ... Which it seems many people here feel is something THEY don't do.

[EVZ]

I had a collision just the other night. God almighty yes! I was in the process or roping a C205 flown by a guy that's been around a bit. It was getting dark so visibility wasn't the best. I topped out and started down waiting for his nose to drop so I could put a burst into his canopy but I kinda lost sight of his plane against a dark patch of ground. I hit him as I passed

Sounds suspiciously like a HO ... doesn't it !!!