410 vs Buffs tweek the balance?

[W7LPNRICK]

Nerfing things for "balance" turns a sim into an arcade game. I am not for it for the sake of balance. I am for making the game as much of a simulation as possible. If it is really that dangerous maybe it should be pushed up on the ENY scale. Personally I think the fewer used planes in the war that barely got out there should be much lower in numbers encountered.

Think of it as a good time to learn to escort buffs to get them to the target.

Just my two cents.

-2 because the easy kills before you get landed out way the leathality of the AC.     

[W7LPNRICK]

I know

This should help a little.................

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My Dodge Quad-Cab 4X4 used to be that pretty 'till I used it to kill a whole herd of mule deer early one morning on a country highway doing 65 in the dark....DOH!

[W7LPNRICK]

I posted it.  See below.   I think what we have to be careful with though is just because we can find some examples of the armor glass working, doesn't mean it was 100 percent stop em every time.  We don't know how fast the shell was moving at the time of the hit or how many hit on the canopy etc.  The reason there is a photo is cause the plane got home.  That doesn't mean they all got home and every shot was stopped.

I'd suggest that a big part of this is still that folks were expecting the 410 to be more then it is in terms of performance.  Just cause it looks good and carries big cannons, doesn't mean it's not just a big target

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kinda looks like a bird-strike on an F-15...

[Scherf]

I posted it.  See below.   I think what we have to be careful with though is just because we can find some examples of the armor glass working, doesn't mean it was 100 percent stop em every time.  We don't know how fast the shell was moving at the time of the hit or how many hit on the canopy etc.  The reason there is a photo is cause the plane got home.  That doesn't mean they all got home and every shot was stopped.

I'd suggest that a big part of this is still that folks were expecting the 410 to be more then it is in terms of performance.  Just cause it looks good and carries big cannons, doesn't mean it's not just a big target

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Thanks Guppy.

[Karnak]

I have no documentation to show whether it's ballistic glass or not, but I was killed with not more than 2-3 rounds from a Lanc @ my co-alt 6....So...? you tell me, maybe it's supposed to be, but it ain't! 

What plane?  The armored glass is only in front, so from your six you'd be relying on the armor plate behind you.  If the rounds miss the armor by coming in from the side, well, even a single .303 round can kill then.  All most fighters have on the side or top is the aluminum skin, cockpit control bits or thin perspex.

It sounds like our Me410 doesn't have armored glass in front.

[W7LPNRICK]

to clarify...I was on the Lanc's co-alt 6 he bloodied my 410 pilot w/ those puny tail guns with only 2-3 pings from the direct front angle......  

[Karnak]

to clarify...I was on the Lanc's co-alt 6 he bloodied my 410 pilot w/ those puny tail guns with only 2-3 pings from the direct front angle......  

.50 cals are puny?

Also, as it seems the Me410 lacks any armored glass in front, even if our Lanc had the quad .303 turret it would still be quite capable of killing the Me410's pilot.

[save]

No news for me , got PK'ed by a 110 rear gunner  in an A8, direct behind him , guess they lack front armored glass too.

[Tank-Ace]

Nerfing things for "balance" turns a sim into an arcade game. I am not for it for the sake of balance. I am for making the game as much of a simulation as possible. If it is really that dangerous maybe it should be pushed up on the ENY scale. Personally I think the fewer used planes in the war that barely got out there should be much lower in numbers encountered.

Pw thing sounds more like a bug, as I would be absolutely astonished if the 410 didn't have armored glass, even if the glass wasn't nessicarily 'bullet proof'.


what was the 'bullet-proof' glass in WWII rated for, anyway? 7.92mm, 12.7mm? 20mm, 30mm? 128mm APCR rounds?


As to the 50mm, you could make it less effective by simply reducing the zoom level for the 410. Properly speaking, we shouldn't have zoom for any aircraft.

[coombz]

I was on the Lanc's co-alt 6...

learn to play

[EagleDNY]

Hispano Mk II muzzle velocity: 880m/sec
Aircraft mounted Browning .50 muzzle velocity: 880m/sec

20mm cannons had markedly higher armor penetration than did the Browning .50.  The Browning .50 is not a god weapon that violates the laws of physics.

Sorry, but you are claiming that something that factually happened didn't happen.

It isn't violating the laws of physics - it is merely the difference between HE and AP ammo.  The 1940's era M2 ball ammo (and even the M10 ammo for aircraft machine guns) was perfectly capable of blasting through a 1/2" of steel plate.  I once saw a demonstration of the old (1940s-era) vs new (1990's sabot rounds) and both were pretty devastating.  The old ammo went through one side of the M3, but wouldn't penetrate a BMP.  The new ammo went right through the M3 and blasted holes in the BMP.

20mm HE ammo explodes on impact - it has a nose fuse along with 18g of HE inside (nice boom).  The 20mm MG-151 AP-T is what had 13mm+ of armor piercing capability, and that was just by filling in the cavity in the round.  The german APHE and API rounds had a smaller amount of HE that would detonate after 4-5mm of armor penetration.  

There is no .50 cal HE round, so pretty much everything you shoot has some armor penetration capability - this is not the case with a MG-151 loaded up with HE ammo, or some mix of HE / HEI / APHE.  I can definitely see that armored glass stopping an 20mm HE round, but I wouldn't want to be on the other side of it when it cops an AP round.  

[Tank-Ace]

Whats the argument here?

That a .50 cal would be more effective against armored glass than a 20mm?


No. Why? Even the HE rounds are gonna do some damage to the glass, depending on how thick, they might break it or crack it. If it couldn't even damage glass, it would be useless against metal.

And the AP rounds would be better than the .50's at punch through a sheet of glass. Same muzzle velocity + higher mass = more penetration.


And besides, when all it takes is one bullet to hit the pilot, they'd all be about equally effective.



So, should the 410's pilot be so vulnerable? Probably not. It almost certianlly was armored glass, we've seen proof that armored glass can stop 20mm rounds. At ranges above 1000yds, .50's shouldn't be punching through where 20mm's wouldn't.

Is it a bug? Possibly: for a while, the M4(76) had thicker armor on the (left?) hull side than it should have been. We've had bugs before, and we'll have them again in the future.

Is it a decision by HTC? It very well might be exactly that. Who knows what exactly they're trying for. Not us.

[Delirium]

P38 drivers have suffered from pilot wounds for years, I'm glad someone can now suffer with us.

[STEELE]

Pw thing sounds more like a bug, as I would be absolutely astonished if the 410 didn't have armored glass, even if the glass wasn't nessicarily 'bullet proof'.


what was the 'bullet-proof' glass in WWII rated for, anyway? 7.92mm, 12.7mm? 20mm, 30mm? 128mm APCR rounds?


As to the 50mm, you could make it less effective by simply reducing the zoom level for the 410. Properly speaking, we shouldn't have zoom for any aircraft.

Wronnn-gahhh 
410 should have MORE zoom than any plane in AH,  they actually had a 12" (give or take) long telescope sight to aim the Bk-5

[Tank-Ace]

P38 drivers have suffered from pilot wounds for years, I'm glad someone can now suffer with us.

You're probably still beaten by A6M drivers  .