Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%

[caldera]

If some wacko builds bombs and booby traps in his apartment, he can probably jury-rig some bigger magazines too.

And if he is going to break the law by murdering people, he won't have much regard for laws limiting his magazine size.

Making stricter laws will not stop someone this crazy.  A bunch of lunatics killed thousands with box cutters. 

[jimson]

There is no doubt it had an effect. In Tucson, the gunman, with a 33-round clip, got off 31 shots in less than 15 seconds. An inexperienced shooter, that doesn't happen if he suddenly notices he isn't shooting and has to reload. In fact, like someone mentioned earlier, the Tucson shooter was also subdued while reloading.

Yeah by someone who was able to grab the end of his long magazine, She wouldn't have been able to grab a shorter one and would probably would have been killed.

You'd have to ask them. I can tell you as a very inexperienced shooter, which almost all of these people are, I would much rather have a bigger clip if I were to be in a situation where I had to use a gun.

Ironic isn't it?  As an experienced shooter, so would I.

[TonyJoey]

How about any of the other mass shooting that have been brought up? Did they use explosives? Guns are simple to operate, and are the first choice of many people simply because even the most inexperienced person can operate them to some extent. Obviously there are other just as deadly ways to inflict damage, but there is a reason why guns are used so much.

Jimson, do you feel a 15-round clip is sufficient for self-defense purposes?

Also, according to http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-09/justice/arizona.shooting_1_arizona-congresswoman-gabrielle-giffords-people-shot-doctors?_s=PM:CRIME, he dropped the magazine onto the sidewalk while trying to reload and it was picked up there.

[Widewing]

Getting sucked back into the vortex of debate... I would consider anything over 10-15 rounds large-capacity.

I don't.... That's standard capacity for handguns, and 50% of many semi-auto rifles..

Sorry TonyJoey, but none of your arguments pass the smell test.

By the way, it's not a "clip", it's a magazine...

[TonyJoey]

Obviously 20 or 30 round clips are standard for military or police use. That doesn't mean that for civilian purposes one couldn't consider them large-capacity.

[Widewing]

Obviously 20 or 30 round clips are standard for military or police use. That doesn't mean that for civilian purposes one couldn't consider them large-capacity.

You can consider them anything you wish... That doesn't make them so.

[TonyJoey]

You can consider them anything you wish... That doesn't make them so.

Since it suits the definition more accurately, I will now say ban standard-capacity magazines for weapons. 15 bullet max.

[lambo31]

And what's the violent crime rate in England nowadays?  How about Australia?  Or Chicago?  How does that gun control work out for them?


Guns don't equal freedom.  Well what, exactly is freedom?  Is it the right to run arond the streets naked with green jello all over your body?  Is that freedom?  Or is freedom the right to live your life how you see fit, how you deem.  The right to choose where you work, where you live, how you live, if you want to raise a family, how you raise your family.  Life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness.  That is freedom.

And what is a gun? A gun is a tool.  It is a violent, highly capable and extremely effective tool.  But more to the point, guns are power.  Raw, unfiltered, no nonsense power.
A man with a gun has a power that a man without a gun will never achieve.  The power to choose.  And choosing is what freedom is all about.
  
If guns never existed, then strength of arm and skill with a bow would be the equals of that power.  Physical size, sharpness of sword and innate hand-eye coordination would be the powers that let you choose your life.  A 6 ft 230 lbs. man could choose any life he wanted in such a world, he could very easily choose to dominate or take what he wanted because very very few people could stand up to him. He could become a champion of righteousness, he could become a king, a conqueror, or he could become a murderer, a rapist, a being most vile and foul and very few people could hope to stop him.  
A 14 year old girl with a gun has more power than he.

The men who created this nation understood this.  They understood that for freedom to exist, for people to be able to choose their lives they must have the power to do so.  And power stems not from an idea, not from a belief, not from the vote, or from a government, or divine mandate.  The root of all power throughout all of history, is by what one man or woman can physically do.  The ultimate form of power on this Earth, is the ability to end life.  It has been so for thousands of years.  The threat of it has seen nations rise and fall.  Has seen people act with extraordinary valor and others with utter deprivation.

How then do you make certain that the people you wish to protect have the power to protect themselves?
You arm them.  You let them, as a right of citizenship carry whatever arms they deem necessary to protect themselves.  The ultimate power of the Earth then rests, not with a king, not with a priest, or a book of law interpreted by a council, but divided, split 300 million times amongst the people who have no desire to abuse it.
Some will die, there will be accidents, some will abuse this power but others will be there to stop them. In a far more effective manner than any watch, police force, or army.



The tragedy that has taken place is not that guns were used to kill people.  If a man is crazy, if a man desires it, he can kill just as effectively, just as many people, if not more, with weapons that aren't guns, and that are far easier to obtain.
The tragedy is that people died, and a man killed them.  The tools are irrelevant.

Very well put Hoffman

Lambo

[jimson]

How about any of the other mass shooting that have been brought up? Did they use explosives? Guns are simple to operate, and are the first choice of many people simply because even the most inexperienced person can operate them to some extent. Obviously there are other just as deadly ways to inflict damage, but there is a reason why guns are used so much.

Jimson, do you feel a 15-round clip is sufficient for self-defense purposes?  That depends. You could face multiple attackers, then perhaps not. Personally I'd be Ok with several 15 round magazines, but I really don't want to be told how effective a firearm I need when my life is on the line.

I have some property near a well traveled smuggling route, I was once told by a BP agent if I ever see anyone pretend I don't and don't reach for my pocket lest they think I'm going for a cell phone. Out there I want a semi auto rifle and some 30 round magazines.

Also, according to http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-09/justice/arizona.shooting_1_arizona-congresswoman-gabrielle-giffords-people-shot-doctors?_s=PM:CRIME, he dropped the magazine onto the sidewalk while trying to reload and it was picked up there.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/giffords-shooting-timeline/
"The shooter attempts to reload his weapon when a woman grabs the gun's magazine and rips it away from him. The shooter tries to put another magazine in the gun, but the spring in the magazine fails. Two men subdue him until authorities arrive."

[Maniac]

Ban Guns.

[TonyJoey]

"Authorities said the suspect, 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner, was tackled by two men when he tried to reload his pistol -- while a woman in the crowd, Patricia Maisch, took away the fresh magazine Loughner had dropped.

"He pulled the magazine out of his pants pocket and it dropped onto the sidewalk. And before he could reach it, I got it," Maisch told CNN. "I just reacted. I didn't have an opportunity to think."

Asked about people calling her a hero, she said, "The two men that secured him were the heroes. I just was an assistant in being able to get that magazine or clip."

[jimson]

Maisch looked up and saw the gunman, allegedly Jared Loughner, reaching for a second 31-shot clip from his pants pocket after emptying his first.
"He was pulling the magazine out of his pocket with his left hand, and I was able to grab the magazine when he pulled it out," Maisch said last night.
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/incredible_heroism_fzNQYC2zCqYbSN1GqRFFiI#ixzz21gRqoNTc

I guess we could do this all day.

[Widewing]

Since it suits the definition more accurately, I will now say ban standard-capacity magazines for weapons. 15 bullet max.

That will never happen again... It failed the last time and the Federal ban was lifted. It solved nothing. 600 million AK type magazines in circulation worldwide, probably even more.. Hell, the damn Feds were giving "assault weapons" to Mexican drug cartels (an amazing exercise in stupidity). Good luck keeping those out of the hands of those willing to obtain them. I've got about a dozen extra myself which I don't need (nice East German mags)... Ditto on H&K G3/CETME mags. I'd sell them, but some do-gooder politicians might exercise another empty gesture of futility and ban future sales. So, I'll keep them.

You youngsters have no sense for history, and by and large little knowledge of firearms. No one will be grabbing the shooter if not within arms distance at the outset. Everyone will be running for their lives.

On August 1, 1966, Charles Whitman killed 14 (16 if you count knifing his mother and wife) and wounded 32 others with a 5 round capacity, Remington 700 6mm bolt-action rifle. Go ahead, tell me how banning your so called "high capacity magazines will prevent that...

[jimson]

I'm gonna quit it now TJ. You are dug in and I'm not wasting any more time on this. I do think you are predictably taking the easy road and focusing on a feel good measure that is the thing least likely to make any difference.

I'd be looking at better security for high profile events. I'd be wondering how the Colorado POS managed to unnoticed propped a door open so that he could bring his arsenal in through the back, that's not very secure. He sure wouldn't have got it through the front door that easily.

The Tucson POS got thrown out of community college and told not to return by campus police until he had been evaluated to make sure he wasn't dangerous. I don't know why there wasn't some reporting mechanism, as you would think that should be enough to land him on a prohibited possessers list.

I don't know if there was a mental health aspect that could have prevented the Aurora massacre, but apparently the POS sent a "manifesto" to a psychiatrist detailing what he planned to do. Unfortunately it sat unopened until after he had done it.

[RTHolmes]

interesting discussion gents, and thanks for keeping it mostly civil