Dealing with High 109s and 190s

[waystin2]

I would approach this situation by starting a gradual turn and pulling the turn tighter and tighter the closer they get.  Make sure there is a vertical component in your turn.  I like to be slightly nose down so I have a lot of speed on board for follow on maneuvers.  The reason for this is to scrub off some of their alt and E and try to get on an equal footing with them.  The moment that they break out of trying to get lead on you, you barrel roll back into their vector and follow them up or straight.  Just do not follow to long as you can roped easily if you have not got them slowed down enough.  Watch your airspeed gauge!  Know when to break away from a pursuit climb to keep maneuvering speed.  Bleed their E, conserve yours as much as possible.  It might take several passes from them before you get a chance at them, but your time will come.  Be patient, you have all the time in the world to make a good shot when the opportunity presents itself.  The goal is to get a shot on them, not to avoid being shot at by them. 

Secondly, think thin.  At that moment when you know they are going to fire (knowing this comes with experience), turn/roll your plane so as to present them with the thinnest profile shot, your side view.  Not that big fat full plane (easy target) view that you see in a flat turn.

[RTHolmes]

found a film of me and a squaddie getting bounced by a +E K4 who quite rightly played the vert card against our jugs, I think it illustrates this kind of fight well.

Latrobe and Wiley pretty much nailed it in the first few posts, I'll add that in a jug its essential to be aggressive in defence. keep the guy worried about those 8 .50s, but only burn E when you have too. otherwise keep it corner speed as much as you can, reduce your E-deficit and only use a notch or 2 of flaps as required. fly lag pursuit until you get a kill shot, but throw in the odd low-% burst just to psych him if it feels right.

http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/jugs_vs_k4.ahf

[Brakechk]

I read through the posts kinda quickly so if someone already covered this previously sorry but there is one more thing to consider when dealing with nme's at higher E states.  Don't assume that just because they have big alt or speed going into the fight that they are going to keep it.  So either on the first pass they dump a load of energy and attempt to saddle up for a short tracking shot or manage that advantage in such a way that they have just a little more than you and dance around on your head just out of reach.  It's actually difficult to deal with a really large differential in energy because you as the defender can usually maneuver just a little and foil a shot, especially if the attacker is coming into the attack locked up due to excessive speed.  This E dump can happen on the first pass or later if a few high speed passes don't work out all that well.

I really base my defensive actions on what the guy with the E advantage is doing.  My goal isn't just to avoid the shot but to get the kill.  So it's all about what gets that guy in reach of my guns.  There are a number of ways of doing that and it depends on what seems like will work best for that particular situation.  A slow then tightening turn just as they are getting into range followed by a reverse sort of barrel roll usually will put the guy in sites for a snapshot, a straight barrel roll defense is also nice but I have a hard time getting guns on in that situation.  If you are in reach and can follow him up and put a couple hits on him before you have to break off that works too.  If you can get hit on them many times you'll upset them a bit and they will start a turn to avoid more hits. Wether the turn is in the vertical or horizontal your situation just got much better.

Don't forget that alot of these folks in here are familiar with a barrel roll defense or the slowly tightening turn or whatever and can plan in advance to counter it.  Don't get discouraged if you die trying them, it's likely a timing issue on your part.  Practice makes perfect and also results in alot of broken planes.

To be honest an nme with a boatload of altitude or speed is nothing to really be worried about.  Keep your eye on em, look at what they are doing and make some decisions based on what your seeing and figure out a way to get a kill or....get dead and learn something from it.

The worst situation is the one where the guy uses his E advantage to deny the fight altogether....everything else....live or die....is what makes this game so addictive.

[Bruv119]

just remember having too much energy is just as bad as having too little. 

Use that against them when they dive and try and reverse the situation or at least get co-E through gentle evades.  Don't follow any obvious ropes and focus on your relative speeds.   

Flying the plane is difficult enough but knowing and judging these differences is the key to winning and losing.   

[Hazard69]

One more thing I'll just add here is that, while the highest E advantage con is usually the greatest threat, don't get too fixated on him.

Often I've been killed not by the high and fast con that I am evading, but by the lower, more Co-E con that showed up later and saddled up while I was busy evading the higher guy.

Oh and OP, I'm told the German iron (and most others) doesn't go right as good as it does to the left (although I assume that's primarily at low speeds). Just my $0.02.

 

[titanic3]

One more thing I'll just add here is that, while the highest E advantage con is usually the greatest threat, don't get too fixated on him.

Often I've been killed not by the high and fast con that I am evading, but by the lower, more Co-E con that showed up later and saddled up while I was busy evading the higher guy.

Oh and OP, I'm told the German iron (and most others) doesn't go right as good as it does to the left (although I assume that's primarily at low speeds). Just my $0.02.

 

You won't notice it unless at very very low speeds, about 100mph or less. So in most situations, it makes little to no difference.

[Big Rat]

The defence against a high con with a 47 is much the same as the Hog as they both climb and accelerate poorly, so getting Co-E often takes a few missed passes on the bad guys part.  Most of the advice you've gotten so far is very good.  One thing I haven't seen mentioned is closely watching the guy as he comes down.  You only want to evaid as much as you have to, any extra is burning E that you are desperately trying to build.  For example, as you break into your oppenent, watch as he makes his run.  There will be a point at which the gun run is given up, and they'll start zooming back up.  This is the point at which you relax your controls and start building E again.  Timing is critical, in that let off too early and he may get a gun solution, too late and you're burning E that you need to even out this fight.  One part of this game that I find hard to break many of the habit on is thinking offensive defence.  Most in the game have two modes of thinking, Kill, and survival.  I like to teach 3 modes: Kill, offensive defence, and survival.  Kill, is when you are purely the attacker or have a definite advantage.  Offensive defence, is when you are fighting at a disadvantage with the possibility of reversing the situation or forcing an equal fight.  Survival:  the option of turning the fight around is now gone, and you are now looking for a window of escape.  So keep in mind the Offensive defensive mind set when dealing with a high con, watch and wait for a mistake. Be patient, often the one who can't be the most patient will be the one least likely to make a mistake.  Always watch for your evasion follow, if he tries to break with you, this is your chance to reverse.  Barrel Roll defence on a follow is golden, as he has more smash and can't follow it, and will be forced an overshoot.  One of the first habits I break from most of my students is ever following me on a low break turn when they have an E advantage, as they are very quickly reversed and shot. 

 
BigRat   

[BaldEagl]

Be patient, often the one who can't be the most patient will be the one least likely to make a mistake. 

I'm sure you didn't mean to say that being impatient leads to fewer mistakes.

[bozon]

If you want to make the other guy burn more E, make him lower his nose as much as possible. This means that when you make your evasive move, try to do it with the nose below the horizon. Not too low because you do not want to build too much speed yourself, but this, combined with turning into and under your opponent will force him to steepen his dive if he wants to force a shot.

It gives you several benefits: Your opponent will get too fast, giving him a shorter time to aim and burn more E due to drag. He will burn more E on the pullout because he will require more G in order not to drop well below. It will take him longer to recover and set up a new attack, time that you can use to level, build a bit of speed for the next evasive and go into a shallow climb to build your E if you got the time.

If you see the 190/109 diving behind and slightly below you and then closing fast to make the attack in a shallow climbing attitude, know you are dead. You got a business with a veteran.

[Randy1]

Another really good film and more thoughts to put into practice.

I have used flaps but not judicially enough to get that short lift in a turn.  That film gave me some good idea of how to use them.  I noticed INK used them as well.

Interesting on the ever decreasing turn circle followed by a roll out.

Seems like from the read making the high attacker get greedy and sell his E for the kill is the best plan no matter what you do.

This has been a really helpful thread to me.

[Big Rat]

I'm sure you didn't mean to say that being impatient leads to fewer mistakes.

oops .  Yes being patient leads to fewer mistakes

 
BigRat

[Tank-Ace]

I am in a P47M say at 5000 feet above the ground say at 250 MPH climbing up or just picking up speed heading for a distant enemy base or a dogfight.  I see a 109, 190 or well, really, any fighter say 3000 feet over my plane.  They dive in and it seems my first move gets me shoot every time.

Found the problem. P-47's, while they certianly CAN play at low alt, aren't the best there. Try and climb out over your base if nessecary, or climbing higher before ingressing.


As to the 109, it really depends on what possition hes attacking from, so I can't give any particular maneuvers without more information. But if you don't mind blowing alt, just dive hard and fast, and he'll probably break off. Unless it was a lone con, I never dove to chase an enemy in the 109. If he does dive, you'll have two things going for you: 1) he will have had to limit his dive speed, or else lawn-dart. That means your E-levels should be close to equal when you hit the deck, or just stop diving.  2) He'll be suffering from heavy control surfaces, and so you can gain an early advantage before he slows down and starts to maneuver more effectively.

However, this also carries its own set of risks. If you don't gain the advantage in the initial manevuers when he's still heavy at the controlls, or gain enough seperation to escape, then all you've done is blow altitude, so you can't try to dive again. The 109 soundly out-climbs and out-accelerates the P-47 at most altitudes, so the E states won't stay equal without you putting some preasure on him.


As for the 190, I didn't fly it as much as I flew the 109, but I think you're kind of out of luck; they handle speed fine, and they can reorient their lift vector faster than anything else in the game, so he'll be able to follow most maneuvers just fine.

[bozon]

Found the problem. P-47's, while they certianly CAN play at low alt, aren't the best there. Try and climb out over your base if nessecary, or climbing higher before ingressing.
...<snip>
As to the 109, it really depends on what possition hes attacking from, so I can't give any particular maneuvers without more information. But if you don't mind blowing alt, just dive hard and fast, and he'll probably break off.
...<snip>
As for the 190, I didn't fly it as much as I flew the 109, but I think you're kind of out of luck; they handle speed fine, and they can reorient their lift vector faster than anything else in the game, so he'll be able to follow most maneuvers just fine.

It is true that the P47 is a high alt bird, but the M has excellent low alt performance as well, as long as it still has the WEP - never waste all of it on the climb, save it for combat! The M with the WEP can tackle any MA bird with reasonable odds, even at 5k.

An all out dive is an escape maneuver. It means giving up the fight. 5k is not a lot and if the 109 (assume K or G14) pilot has any clue, he will easily catch up to you on the deck and then force you to fight at even worse condition where you have no room for vertical maneuvers.

The 190 has almost no roll rate advantage over the P47 - numbers lie. When the roll rate is fast enough to challenge the reaction of the pilot, it does not matter any more. If you can do a 90 deg bank in 0.1, 0.01 or 0.001 seconds, it really does not matter, unless all you are trying to do is to beat the network update rate and appear to be micro-warping around on the other machine. Against 190s it is vital that you do not allow them to fix their aim and time the shot. You have to keep your orientation towards them changing, so they have to keep correcting. This means movement in all 3 axes. Example: roll left and go into a break turn, then follow with a loaded roll to the left till you are in a right hand turn (think half a barrel roll). From his point of view, you are moving is a curved line that is difficult to lead with the guns and that will force him to steepen his dive if he tries to. By this point the 190 will either take a wild shot and break off or be sucked into a rolling scissors, where you have a good chance to reverse him if he is not careful with his speed.

Nothing is guaranteed. A good pilot will get you no matter what he or you fly.

[titanic3]

It is true that the P47 is a high alt bird, but the M has excellent low alt performance as well, as long as it still has the WEP - never waste all of it on the climb, save it for combat! The M with the WEP can tackle any MA bird with reasonable odds, even at 5k.

An all out dive is an escape maneuver. It means giving up the fight. 5k is not a lot and if the 109 (assume K or G14) pilot has any clue, he will easily catch up to you on the deck and then force you to fight at even worse condition where you have no room for vertical maneuvers.

The 190 has almost no roll rate advantage over the P47 - numbers lie. When the roll rate is fast enough to challenge the reaction of the pilot, it does not matter any more. If you can do a 90 deg bank in 0.1, 0.01 or 0.001 seconds, it really does not matter, unless all you are trying to do is to beat the network update rate and appear to be micro-warping around on the other machine. Against 190s it is vital that you do not allow them to fix their aim and time the shot. You have to keep your orientation towards them changing, so they have to keep correcting. This means movement in all 3 axes. Example: roll left and go into a break turn, then follow with a loaded roll to the left till you are in a right hand turn (think half a barrel roll). From his point of view, you are moving is a curved line that is difficult to lead with the guns and that will force him to steepen his dive if he tries to. By this point the 190 will either take a wild shot and break off or be sucked into a rolling scissors, where you have a good chance to reverse him if he is not careful with his speed.

Nothing is guaranteed. A good pilot will get you no matter what he or you fly.

Yup. Well..maybe not a D3A1... 

Another note on roll rate. Sometimes, planes with a good rudder can "out roll" a plane without a good rudder even though on paper, it shouldn't. Use your rudder! In a rolling scissors, it can force an overshoot, helps you roll faster, and place you at awkward angles making the other guy's aim a hard job.

[Randy1]

I continue to have success with high enemies as long as it is a single attacker.  Two or more spits or 51s as an example are hard to escape if you are by yourself and they have an E advantage.  I did get tagged by a 262 but that was lack of SA.  I just plain wasn't looking.

I have noticed other pilots when picking a target will pick a  P47 or P38 first if they have a choice so it makes choosing a P47 like putting a big bullseye on the tail.  I guess because they are bigger and easier to hit.  I noticed too in the radio chatter, a P47 of P38 gets more attention on average in a furbal or airfield attack.

I have had a couple of overshoots with one I took advantage of so all the replies have really paid off.

Yes the P47M using a touch of flaps, and wep makes the 47M a bit like a giant La7 with 8-50s in a furbal as long as I can pull up to 2000 feet above the deck after a pass.  The flap play I got from the films used as examples in the replies so I got a two'fer out of this learning experience.  The only thing missing on the M is that ability to extend like a mustang for an escape when WEP runs out.

Thanks again to all.