Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152

[Tank-Ace]

Krusty, that's just plain stupid.

 Even P-47s taking hundreds of machine gun rounds and 10+ 20mm rounds were extreme rarities. No aircraft, fighter or bomber, could reliably take that kind of beating.

Also, mountings on single engine fighter were specifically geared towards hunting bombers. The 190 in particular is a good example. Notice the 109 doesn't get the 30mm till late in the game, when bombers become a big threat.

Consider that all designated night fighters and bomber killers had the 30mm.

[skorpx1]

Wrong again. The primary objective was to knock down heavies. That is just the way it is Krusty. Fighter aircraft went up to attack the bombers and not just to score kills on escort fighters. The problem is that attacking bombers is very scary when it's your head on the line. So, most of the aircraft with the 30mm guns sat off at over 1,000 yards and hit nothing. Officers would put claims in and receive credit even when their gun cameras showed no hits whatsoever. Those that did dive away once the escorts attacked them may have gotten kills, but their primary mission was to attack the bombers. The number one responsibility of fighter pilots has always been to stop the bombers that are trying to end your ability to wage war. Shooting down other fighters has always been a secondary role.

The Ta152 was specifically designed to engage the B-29s, which the Germans expected to arrive at any time. Sure, they knew the B-29 was being developed, but they could not have known that it was never planned to use B-29s against Germany. The Americans already knew they would put Germany out of business with what they were already using, and the B-29 would be needed for the longer missions against Japan.

As to your clever comment about the 202s, well you don't change the mission role of an aircraft just because something could happen. Sometimes the mission role was changed because an aircraft showed an outstanding quality, as in the P-51s. Or, in the case of the P-38, were removed from the primary fighter role despite being well liked in that role, because the reality was quite a bit different from expectations.

Where the hell is your source for saying that these planes were "specifically designed to engage the B-29's"? And where's the source that says the K4 and 152 were designed for bomber hunting? Wouldn't they use planes specifically designed for that such as the 110 or the 410? Just because you have a 30mm doesn't mean you're attacking bombers. The 410 had a 50mm designed for buff hunting, the 110 had 6 cannons for buff hunting as well. The 152 and K4 has a single 30mm but the 410 has two and the 110 has two, coupled with A2A rockets, which leads me to believe that more cannons = bomber hunter. Not MG's + 30mm. Making a bomber hunter out of a fighter variant doesn't make sense.

[nrshida]

Sometimes the mission role was changed because an aircraft showed an outstanding quality, as in the P-51s.

Like outstanding fuel conservation?

[Tank-Ace]

Where the hell is your source for saying that these planes were "specifically designed to engage the B-29's"? And where's the source that says the K4 and 152 were designed for bomber hunting? Wouldn't they use planes specifically designed for that such as the 110 or the 410? Just because you have a 30mm doesn't mean you're attacking bombers. The 410 had a 50mm designed for buff hunting, the 110 had 6 cannons for buff hunting as well. The 152 and K4 has a single 30mm but the 410 has two and the 110 has two, coupled with A2A rockets, which leads me to believe that more cannons = bomber hunter. Not MG's + 30mm. Making a bomber hunter out of a fighter variant doesn't make sense.

K4 got the 30mm because they were standardizing, and were moving towards the 30mm anyway. They lacked the planes and pilots to cover their ground forces, had no bombers that really needed escort, and couldn't even maintain a state of air inferiority, and thus wanted to focus on the bombers, since interception didn't require you to fight their whole air force.

[Chalenge]

Where the hell is your source. . .

I don't just smack talk with kids around the lunchroom table like you do. I read many books, so of course my take on everything Luftwaffe is enhanced by years of reinforced, cold, hard facts.

You can find this information simply by searching google for "purpose of the Ta152," or by reading the books of Capt. Eric Brown concerning any one of the late war aircraft (163, 262 just to name two), or by reading at least three different books by General Curtis LeMay on the development of the B-29.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

I don't just smack talk with kids around the lunchroom table like you do. I read many books, so of course my take on everything Luftwaffe is enhanced by years of reinforced, cold, hard facts.

You can find this information simply by searching google for "purpose of the Ta152," or by reading the books of Capt. Eric Brown concerning any one of the late war aircraft (163, 262 just to name two), or by reading at least three different books by General Curtis LeMay on the development of the B-29.

Did you read any German books about the purpose and development of the 152 or just American?

[skorpx1]

I don't just smack talk with kids around the lunchroom table like you do. I read many books, so of course my take on everything Luftwaffe is enhanced by years of reinforced, cold, hard facts.

You can find this information simply by searching google for "purpose of the Ta152," or by reading the books of Capt. Eric Brown concerning any one of the late war aircraft (163, 262 just to name two), or by reading at least three different books by General Curtis LeMay on the development of the B-29.

And who wrote these books on the Luftwaffe? Was it an actual German writer who knew his stuff or some American/British fellow who was attempting to write about the planes?

[Tank-Ace]

And who wrote these books on the Luftwaffe? Was it an actual German writer who knew his stuff or some American/British fellow who was attempting to write about the planes?

Does it nesicarially matter? Zaloga is regarded as a reliable source on all things tank-related, even though he can't be native to all those countries.

Sure it would be a bit more credible if you had to translate the book, but what challenge is saying agrees with just about everything I've read, in both standard English, and German.


The Ta-152 was an INTERCEPTOR, not just a high-altitude fighter.

[skorpx1]

Does it nesicarially matter? Zaloga is regarded as a reliable source on all things tank-related, even though he can't be native to all those countries.

Sure it would be a bit more credible if you had to translate the book, but what challenge is saying agrees with just about everything I've read, in both standard English, and German.


The Ta-152 was an INTERCEPTOR, not just a high-altitude fighter.

I'd be more satisfied with someone who actually flew the plane/helped design it over someone who just read up on it then decided to write a book with all of their knowledge of the plane.

[Tank-Ace]

You'll be sorely disappointed then. Most records were lost in the massive s**t storm that was WWII. And since old Kurt ain't around any more, you'll just have to accept the word of people who have studied the topic extensively, and circumstantial evidence.


 In fact, you calling it a high-alt fighter is just as unsupported as us calling it an interceptor. Less supported, actually.


If you wish, I'll break it down for you, and explain why we think it is an interceptor.

[skorpx1]

You'll be sorely disappointed then. Most records were lost in the massive s**t storm that was WWII. And since old Kurt ain't around any more, you'll just have to accept the word of people who have studied the topic extensively, and circumstantial evidence.


 In fact, you calling it a high-alt fighter is just as unsupported as us calling it an interceptor. Less supported, actually.


If you wish, I'll break it down for you, and explain why we think it is an interceptor.

I never called it a high-alt fighter or interceptor. I just think its a fighter, not designed for high alt because most fights happened throughout the war at 15k+ anyways. Speed is nice to have up there, but i'd be more worried about how you're going to outmaneuver the guy trying to kill you.

[Tank-Ace]

So you think all of those optimizations for high altitude combat are just coincidental  ?

[skorpx1]

So you think all of those optimizations for high altitude combat are just coincidental  ?

That didn't quite come out as I intended it. Let me re-phrase that.


It wasn't designed to fight bombers way up there because most fights happened up there anyways, it was designed to be fast up there because it needed to be fast. P47's and P51's were doing 425+ up there and the current 109's/190's couldn't catch up to them. If you have enemies out-doing you in every category then how do you expect to win? The huge wings and massive engine weren't there because bombers were getting away, they're on the 152 because fighters were getting away and doing more damage. More lift and more speed = more chance of keeping up with the 51's and 47's.

[Tank-Ace]

Actually, you might be surprised. There was kind of a drop off in the trend of increasing combat altitude. Notice most fighters are optimized for performance between 23-30k, instead of 30k+, even fighters from late 1944 to 1945, like the K4, D9, Spit 14 and 16, the P-51D (though this was late 43 to early 44), the Tempest, F4Us (all of them), and the Russian and Japanese fighters are optimized for even lower!

[skorpx1]

Actually, you might be surprised. There was kind of a drop off in the trend of increasing combat altitude. Notice most fighters are optimized for performance between 23-30k, instead of 30k+, even fighters from late 1944 to 1945, like the K4, D9, Spit 14 and 16, the P-51D (though this was late 43 to early 44), the Tempest, F4Us (all of them), and the Russian and Japanese fighters are optimized for even lower!

So...Altitude no longer meant safety later in the war? Strange if you ask me, considering a P47 was doing 450 MPH at 30k on WEP, and 400 on MIL power way up at 30k. The 47's engine was designed to take it up there and make it faster than any other fighter -Which it was- the Germans made, I figured since that was the case the 152 was probably one of the responses to that threat.