Help, something I just can't improve on!

[Latrobe]

The one thing I have so much trouble with is avoiding an opponent who's diving in from above and behind. I can avoid the rookies with ease all day long as they just dive in with a horrible approach and point their nose at me, but someone who knows how to come in on a perfect attack run I just can not get away from without at least an oil leak.

I know the long term goal is to neutralize the alt advantage they have, but what should I be doing for the short term goal of trying not to get shot in the process? Should I wait until they're within 1K and split-s, then climb in the other direction? Should I climb, using their speed against them knowing they can't pull that many G's without ripping their wings off? What should I do if they predicted my move?

My favorite approach has been to turn into them and at about 800 yards I roll wings level, pull hard into a climb, and then roll into them as they pass below and behind me (maybe getting a short window of opportunity to shoot them). But this has gotten me shot as many times as it has succeeded. More often than that I break hard into their attack trying to get nose on so I can duck under their attack or get to a position where they have to reverse their turn, but they somehow still get inside my turn and fill me with led. I think I'm misjudging their E (they're probably letting off the throttle so as to not build up as much speed), but knowing that isn't enough obviously. I need to know what to do as they're easing off the throttle to keep behind me, and that is something I do not know.

[TequilaChaser]

Heya Latrobe,
granted Sir, I asked you to join us tonight in the DA ( me, kappa, sc0tch, Shuffler, Changeup, BigR, Sawzall ) I was drinking, but I all of us could have helped you in this instance, specifically  BigR and kappa... even maybe me........

if you would like to work on your situation, PM me and I will wok with you...... it has beeen a LONG time since we have fought each other best of my recollection.... other than that I suggest Badboy to find your delimma, Sir!!!

Hope This Helps... and I am willing to help... just PM   me....

TC

[Latrobe]

Thanks for the offer TC, will have to think about it. I'm not the easiest person to teach though (not by a looooooong shot, I very much lack the ability to learn anything at a normal speed even).

Here's 3 films of an example where someone is making a diving attack at me, and you can literally see from my flying that I am at a complete lose as to what to do. I have seen this exact scenario hundreds of times by now and I still haven't the slightest clue how to avoid the death I can see coming a mile away.

http://www.mediafire.com/?qh15ibdn71jnss2
http://www.mediafire.com/?spjxi3cpqi9qvpz
http://www.mediafire.com/?f5uzyhc5acxejqg


(ignore my comments in the last video, I was just getting PO'd at myself again and talking stupider than usual)

[The Fugitive]

While I'm no pro, it seems odd to me that you are trying to equalize "E" while burning it.

In the first film you seem to freeze when you see the Mossie come around over the top. You stop your attack on the F6 and seem to fly strait waiting for him to dive in, then as he gets close you go for the move. For me I would have turned in the direction of the F6 to make it seem like I was still on him... target fixated. Once I was sure the mossi was in I'd have nosed down a bit and started turning into the mossie. I continue the turn tightening it as he closes making him adjust the whole way in. As he was going to guns, I'd pull to almost black out, nose up and into a barrel roll in the opposite direction looking for that snap shot. 

You just seemed to wait too long to do anything. You handled the spitty fine, you could do the same with the mossie. I think the trick is to keep them adjusting the whole way through their pass. If they have time to line you up, a guy with a good aim WILL knock parts off.

[Mace2004]

I agree with Fugitive on the first one.  The idea of appearing to be fixated on the F6 is good but fundamentally speaking your defense against the Mossie was really just a vertical pull.  

There are two real keys to the BRD.  Movement in three dimensions to create crossing rates across his direction of motion to defeat your adversary's shot and creating flight path overshoot due to his rate of closure and track crossing angle.  You went for the overshoot but did not create the crossing rate problem for him because you stayed in your original vertical plane of motion.  You did point your wingtip at him but then rolled and put the other on him but you never pulled across his nose which is why you stayed in your original plane of motion.  Basically, he could see where you were going and just pulled the lead he needed.  Had he missed his shot you would have gotten a flight path overshoot but he didn't.  Had you simply rolled to put one wingtip on him and pulled down he would have made both vertical and horizonal corrections and changes to his lead.  The vertical, horizonal, and closure rates would be the three dimensional problem he would have to solve.  This is exactly what you did with the Mossie attack in the second film which was perfectly timed (especially given you were actually defending against both the Mossie and the Spit in the same move) so I think that in the first film it was either a matter of misjudging the amount of lead he already had or a bit of indecision.  That said, it's apparent from the film that you were also dealing with significant lag.  From what you saw from your cockpit and what you can see from his in the film he should have missed but from his cockpit (and on his computer) he had the lead he needed.

In the second film I already mentioned that your first defense was perfect.  The second against the Spit where you died was going to be problematic no matter what you did mostly because there was almost no real vertical component to the Spit's attack.  In other words, in most attacks where the BRD will work you rely on the downward flight path to increase his closure, the G required to position for lead and the reduction of time (due to closure) for him to make these adjustments.  You had none of that working for you during the Spit's attack as there was only 1k ft of altitude difference and his speed was well under control.  You still did a credible defense but you were too slow to be able to create enough crossing rate and his speed control meant he could basically just square the corner behind you.  You still had a slight flight path overshoot but not nearly enough that you would have been able to reverse on him.

In the third film I don't see a problem at all (other than fighting in the CV ack).  Your BRD against the Mossie was classic.  A slightly nose low horizontal turn forcing him to roll and adjust to the new plane of motion followed by a perfectly timed roll to put your wingtip on him with the vertical pull and tight barrel roll to convert to a 3-9 overshoot followed by your shot at his six.

I don't see where you have any problem (especially from these films where you were always starting with a positional and numbers disadvantage) but here's a thought.  Judging from your film, choice of ride and extensive vertical moves in a multi-bandit environment you fight aggressively and I think you may see the BRD in the same way I do.  To me the BRD is an offensive maneuver.  I'm usually less worried about actually defending than I am about setting up my shot as he overshoots by converting his flight path overshoot into a 3-9 line overshoot with a tight maneuver to get my nose back on him which means I wait until the very last possible second to defend and do a tight defensive barrel roll to convert and position myself for the shot.  As anyone who does the BRD knows, timing is critical.  Do it too early and you spoil the surprise and your adversary can adjust (or just come off high) but if you do it too late you're toast especially if there's significant internet lag.  To use this as an aggressive offensive maneuver, you need to wait till the very last second to really sucker him in and ensure he's fully committed nose low and then only create enough crossing rates to defeat his shot otherwise your nose is too out of position to convert his overshoot into a 3-9 line one or your range is too great to get the shot.  The downside to this is when that very last second was a fraction of a second too late and he nails you but I love an aggressive BRD because there are few shots as satisfying as when you take a guy that has all the advantages and put a bullet into the back of his skull when he least expects it.  Of course, being aggressive with the BRD also increases the risk and I'll die when I time things wrong but I'm OK with that.      

[Latrobe]

Great post Mace! 

Looking back, I really have no idea what I was going in that first film. Most likely possibility is my own idiocy took over and said "Hey! Do this! It'll get you killed!"

The problem in the second film is he still got rounds on me. Luckily the Hispanos all missed, but he did get the 303's into me so my defense was not perfect. I either made a wrong move somewhere or I timed something wrong. I noticed the flight path overshoot growing on the Spit too and just reversed my roll too early. Had I kept my initial turn going just a little longer and pulled just a few more G's I know the overshoot would have worked perfectly and I would have had him. As for the lag, my internet is just atrocious. Should be getting 6Mb/s on download speed, but only get 1Mb max. Most the time it's under 50Kb/s, and my ISP's most recent "fix" has knocked my ping up from 80 to 230-400. So nothing I can do about the lag.

The third film again he gets shots into me (even better than in the 2nd film, but somehow I survive), so again I either made a bad move somewhere or my timing was off with something.


I do enjoy flying aggressive as you guessed. I really like getting in close, reducing the number of options we both have, and using the difference in plane performance to work my way onto their 6. I love to push my aircrafts performance to the very edge and then some, which is why I love turn fighting zekes in my 109 so much. I can push my 109 just beyond it's limit, fight the zeke on HIS terms, and still come out with a kill. I just love fighting my opponents fight, fighting on his terms, working with a disadvantage from the very start, and finding a way to win the fight. I feel that I learn a whole lot more about both our aircrafts performances and our piloting skill levels this way.

and what does BRD mean?   


 

[TequilaChaser]

and what does BRD mean?

Barrel Roll Defense

downloading films, but seems Mace has helped ya find something, and Fugitive as well.... gotta love this community ... it  s

TC

[Black Jack]

Latrobe, i'm no expert but I can tell you something of my experience of flying that mossy. The fact that those guns are mounted in the nose makes it easier to make killing shots because of no convergence. On top of that, if you move your gunsight a little to the left and up you have a humongous clear area around ur aiming point. He can track ur movements real easy and he has the ammo to spare. 600rds of 20mm and you can easily shoot out to 800yds once u figure out the lead. Believe me, it gets hard to avoid them when the pilot knows how to shoot. I fly the P38 now more often but can easily shoot out to 800yds and get solid hits with them too. Like Mace was saying, timing is everything, so if the mossy opens up at 1k away, and you normally start your move at 800yds so when they normally start to shoot at 600yds. U already dead. Shuffler shot me often at 1k out because of the same reason. I waited a little too long before starting my manoeuver. Darn bullets started pinging when I was still waiting to roll   

[Latrobe]

I know there are more moves you can make against a diving attack. I might have actually done them before but I wouldn't know the technical terms for them.

What else could I do besides the BRD to avoid a diving attack? Doing the same move over and over again, my opponent will eventually catch on and it won't work anymore. Or, maybe they can see what I'm planning to do which also spoils my move.

Having as many moves as possible is a must since your opponent won't know which you will pull out next.

[Bruv119]

well you can initiate the BRD to the left or right just to mix it up a little.  It is a move that can be adapted in the horizontal or vertical.  The key is to deny your opponent the chance to pull enough lead for a clean kill shot.  They could be right on your 6 but if they can't bring their guns to bear then that is useless.

Mace's description is probably the best I have read about it.  I learn't about this move roughly 2 years into my online flying through trial and error and thousands of deaths.  To put a name to it and understand all the elements about setting up the shot, when to pull hard, when to roll and when to snapshoot, took hundreds of hours.  I do put it down to making me a tough SOB to hit and responsible for my above average K/D whilst still being aggressive.

I liken it to being a matador and have a raging bull trying to kill you and with all the grace and style whipping it out of the way at the last second.   I wonder how many matadors get hurt whilst they are practicing   anyway I was going to say that forcing an overshoot or making your opponent miss can be done in loads of different ways the key is timing and your decision process counter acting what your opponent is thinking.  

To do this successfully over time you need to think like your enemy,  if you know who they are what they are flying how aggressive they can be then adapt your approach accordingly.   For me as a regular enough player and the population of the arena when I play I can usually tell whats going to happen within the limits of a small engagement.   If your in with lots of guys attacking you all at once you will just suffer SA overload and not have enough time and space to execute a full BRD and equalise energy states enough for a proper kill.  

So what your asking latrobe is how can you possibly improve on something with thousands of different variables and unfortunately none of us can say that there is a strict textbook or set of rules to master it.   A slice of good luck and application of well practiced theory is all you can hope for to reach a zen like state of knowing everything.

[Latrobe]

"The key is to deny your opponent the chance to pull enough lead for a clean kill shot."

This is the part that I just struggle with for some reason. An example, I see my opponent at 2K as start his diving attack from my 6, a perfect attack approach. I initiate the BRD (since it's my favorite move in this situation) and break left at 1K. My opponent sees this and corrects his approach by turning left with me trying to pull lead. At about 500-600 yards (icons are measured in yards right?), I can see that flight path overshoot I was creating starts to disappear since my opponent has corrected his attack to defeat my left turn break. I know I am in serious trouble if I continue my turn so I initiate part 2 of the BRD and pull a hard climb at 400 yards just as my opponent is lining up to pull the trigger. He tries to correct to my change in direction by pulling up into me. As I see this happening I think he doesn't have enough time left to correct his approach, and I roll over into him to try and get a quick snapshot. Only most of the time they somehow manage to pull up into me and get shots into my plane which leads to my death.

Somewhere in there I either made a wrong move (too much left turn, not enough left turn, not enough vertical movement, too much vertical) or my timing was off (came over the top too early to get the snap shot, the change from left turn to vertical climb was to early or to later). Which of these it was I haven't a clue, and I have not made any ground in solving this problem in the 6 years I've been playing.

[Bruv119]

a quick answer is his closure rate must have been slower than expected or he was experienced enough to chop throttle and slow down enough so that he didn't overshoot giving him enough time to saddle you.  

This one still catches me out now and again because sometimes people do the unexpected and want to fight!  .   If your fortunate to be in the more turny ride and realise quick enough that he has chopped then pull even harder and tighter than you were planning to initially.   He is then suckered into a turn fight and has already burn't whatever energy advantage he had so you should be able to gain his 6 within a few flat turns or rolling scissors.  

The other issue is that if your opponent is someone like me who has done and seen someone do it hundreds of times,  I'm already sticking my guns into the position where your about to pull up into your side profile.  Even If I miss i'm banking away from your barrel roll into a loose lag turn and then as you run out of E looping back in behind you for an easy kill.  

To make the attacker miss if the e states are close to equal you have to generate a more tighter initial turn into him, cut his angle or try and get in underneath his guns for a more typical merge.  Chances are he will want to fight if he doesn't buy into the traditional lame bnz pass.   If he backs off then you need to get your nose down ASAP and reset the merge/wingover/BRD.  

[Latrobe]

So anyone willing to evaluate my attempt to put what I learned into practice? The fight starts at about the 4:30 mark and then it's basically just 10 minutes of avoiding diving attacks from all directions using BRD and a few other things. I was able to keep track of both aircrafts in all the 2v1 situations except for the brief moment I lost sight of the P51 which led to him getting a few rounds in me for the first time (7:16 mark). Luckily I don't die to any enemy fire (almost do though), but I do die from my own stupidity as I stall on the deck. Really dumb move on my part that I really should not have done.

http://www.mediafire.com/?l2279aw283wsuc5

[Bruv119]

i'm at work so can't view it at the moment but In regards to surviving 2 different guys bnzing attacking you using repeated BRD will not help your altitude.

Usually if they play it textbook and don't even pull in for a shot you will end up diving away a number of times until you run out of airspace even more so if your fighting 2/3 of the buggers.   

Your options get more limited when you hit the hard deck so you have to either,  Kill one of them as quickly as possible (but that should be a priority from the start of the 2vs1 engagement)   If you can't do that you need either a distraction or get one of them to auger. 
 
If you try and save some airspeed in your evades and not dive excessively you can hold out for a bit longer and hope some help arrives. 

Once argued the point with the great KI-84 pilot Wilbuz after putting him in the tower a few times, stating that 2 good pilots using team tactics would defeat a lone excellent pilot.   Well I will still stand by that claim depending on some critical variables or chance, the 2 good pilots should win more often than not. 

Anything more regarding survival in a 2+ vs 1 scenario relies more heavily on the plane types and the suckage of the average AHer.  I'll watch it when I get home.   

[Latrobe]

Agree with everything there Bruv.... except maybe the last part. I truly believe that with enough skills and knowledge of ACM and plane performances, a lone pilot can take on and defeat almost any number of opponents at once. That's just what I believe, and strive for.


I did make an attempt to get rounds on the 190 on one of the overshoots and try and put one of them out of the fight, but that just led to me losing sight of the P51 and almost dying. Eventually they both got the altitude advantage over me which is just about unavoidable in this match up (190/P51 vs 109F). If I tried to work my way to their alt then I know from experience that I was just going to get killed, so I let them have the alt and just waited for one of them to make a mistake. My patience did pay off as the 190 augered, and I got my 1v1...  which later turned into another 2v1  , but that turned out to be a repeat of the first 2v1.