Author Topic: Help, something I just can't improve on!  (Read 4987 times)

Offline Bruv119

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2013, 06:29:25 AM »
Agree with everything there Bruv.... except maybe the last part. I truly believe that with enough skills and knowledge of ACM and plane performances, a lone pilot can take on and defeat almost any number of opponents at once. That's just what I believe, and strive for.

I agree that you can fight and defeat up to say 5 vs 1 at the same time, I've done it several times in my Spitty but in every instance of that happening I have only lived with a huge slice of luck, their lack of ACM and shooting ability.   All it needs is one honed shot in those 5 guys and he can just wait for the pick.   If you go into every fight thinking you will best everyone you will end up having to deal with the frustration of people not committing when you need them too.   I know you have a very laid back attitude latrobe and it probably doesn't effect you in the same way in regards to burn out as a long list of others.

It can only help your overall skills if you strive for the challenge of it though  :aok.

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Offline Randy1

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2013, 07:06:42 AM »
. . .I truly believe that with enough skills and knowledge of ACM and plane performances, a lone pilot can take on and defeat almost any number of opponents at once. That's just what I believe, and strive for.

 . . .  Eventually they both got the altitude advantage over me which is just about unavoidable in this match up (190/P51 vs 109F). If I tried to work my way to their alt then I know from experience that I was just going to get killed, so I let them have the alt and just waited for one of them to make a mistake. My patience did pay off  . . . .

These are quotes I need to tape to my monitor.  :aok

This thread is a good read and I have learned  quite a bit.

. One interesting point i got from the film is using low altitude as a way to force a more equal E situation since one of dimension of space below you has been taken away from the diving plane.  That increases the risk for the High E attacker and reduces the risk of the attachie.

Another interesting thought came to mind watching your flap work.   I wonder if an opening defensive move in the right speed situation is extending flaps first before the defensive maneuver as you wait for closure so the direction change can be more dramatic when the time comes.  I know from getting  shot down, a high E attacker that controls the entry speed is more dangerous and requires more timely and dramatic moves.

Offline Gman

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2013, 07:18:40 AM »
I read a lot of these types of threads, and think about these specific things a lot as well.  Thanks for the films Latrobe, it's good to be able to sit in all the planes involved and see things from all the different perspectives.  Having Mace and Bruv, among the better "real" and "virtual" pilots both contribute is great, and I'm glad most of the arena doesn't bother reading this stuff or it would make my life a lot harder.

I've flown the Spit5 a lot in the last few months, all under 10k, usually on the deck, and I find I can survive and kill even when outnumbered, but usually only when those enemy planes have average pilots, or good pilots with average shooting ability.  Any combination of good or excellent in either category, and living in a 3/4/5 v 1 is much tougher to do, and requires a lot of luck.  

I find my problem is falling into old habits.  I've always just relied on timing in order to keep out of the enemies gunsite, and when I'm dived on by a higher con, I usually just pull up into him in a hard vertical pull and then roll back into him once he's gone sailing by with his trigger down spraying away, and try for a shot, without having pointed my wing at him at all.  I find it's hard to judge when to relax that first pull, and roll my wingtip towards him, as this takes a lot of guts to try at first when just pulling straight usually works without changing my vector, or however Mace put it in terms of adding more planes of motion or whatever into the equation to complicate the enemy planes guns solution.  By the time I've waited for him to get close enough for my "normal" break to work, which does in 95 percent of the cases, it's too late to try and put a wingtip on him as he's closed the distance and his relative overtake airspeed is such that there just isn't time.  I think I should be pulling that first time when the enemy is further away, but still has committed to attacking me, say 1.7 or something like that, and then at 1.0 or something like that then rolling a bit to put my wingtip on him and then pulling again, then going for another roll to get him back into my sites.  I wish I had some films of me failing at this, but I don't, as like I said I usually get by just doing it the "old" way, and keep a high k/d and k/time ratio with this, but I WANT to be able to do it better and how Mace, Latrobe, and Bruv are describing it.

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2013, 08:16:05 AM »
One interesting point i got from the film is using low altitude as a way to force a more equal E situation since one of dimension of space below you has been taken away from the diving plane.  That increases the risk for the High E attacker and reduces the risk of the attachie.

This is one of my favorite things to do. Get right below the attacker so he is forced to come down at almost a 90 degree angle, avoid the shot, and wait for a proxy kill. I'd say a quarter of my kills a month are actually assists from the ground.  :D

Another interesting thought came to mind watching your flap work.   I wonder if an opening defensive move in the right speed situation is extending flaps first before the defensive maneuver as you wait for closure so the direction change can be more dramatic when the time comes.  I know from getting  shot down, a high E attacker that controls the entry speed is more dangerous and requires more timely and dramatic moves.

I have not thought of this. Usually I dump my flaps as I'm maneuvering. I would think that it would just bleed off E unnecessarily. You might avoid the attack, but you'd be very slow afterwards and probably a sitting duck for a 2nd attack. It most likely would be more affective to use angles (or plane of motion as mace put it) to keep as much of your E as you can and still forcing an overshoot


but I WANT to be able to do it better and how Mace, Latrobe, and Bruv are describing it.

Congratulations! You are now a better pilot than 80% of the MA! Just having the will to WANT to be better and improve will always automatically put you in the top 20% of best pilots, at least in my book it does. Soooo many people I've met in the MA that just could not care less about learning ACM (or just don't feel like putting forth the effort) and only care for their ego and score, so they take P51s and 190s to 20K and do the typical "1 pass and run" tactic.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 08:23:40 AM by Latrobe »

Offline katanaso

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2013, 08:28:40 AM »
Latrobe,

I take into consideration which way the enemy plane torques when breaking into a BRD or a rolling scissor.  Some of the planes might be able to adjust and pull lead for a shot because they're cutting throttle and the removal of engine torque is helping their plane roll in that direction as well.

Another thing is to try and make the enemy plane operate outside of an optimal turning speed.  Trick them into gaining enough speed to where their turn radius will be large.

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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2013, 09:27:09 AM »
OK, just watched the film. I wish the film viewer either showed the TrackIR views, or at least let me use the hat switch to change views in the viewer. I'm not real good at keeping up using the keypad.

To me it looked like you wasted a ton of E and you were luck these guys were NOT working together. They gave you a lot of time to regain any alt you were giving up in your Split-s/ low yo turns you were doing. The problem was you didn't take advantage of it. Your trying to equalize the E here and the more you throw away, the more you have to wait for them to throw theirs away, which means dodging more passes.

When they give you room to grab, grab at your best corner speed away from them. When they turn back at you go level, once they are inside that 2k mark start a very easy turn back into them. A lot of times you start the turn ok, but you go into it too hard, burning E and getting almost a head on angle instead of the 90 degrees off angle to break into the BRD. The closer to head on you get the more E your going to burn trying to come around.

Your best BRD was the next to the last one, your worst, the last one  :devil You seem to do better with less time to think about it. With the zero you were doing pretty much the same moves, but smaller and tighter. Given the extra time the BnZers give you gives you time to second guess your self.

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2013, 09:46:33 AM »
Fugi, could you point out a part of the film where I should have chosen to extend way and get some alt? My fighter pilot mentality is to always be aggressive, even when at the disadvantage, and never show my 6 on purpose. So, I really don't have a very good idea at which point I should have went for altitude instead of the attack.

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2013, 10:08:48 AM »
That may be your problem, the BRD works best when you start by GIVING them your 6.

With out going through the whole film for step by steps, the pony makes the first pass on you. You maintain your speed, but start turning into him very early, which brings you around on the 190 too. I would have stayed level longer drawing the 2 enemy apart a bit more giving the 190 my six to create more separation between the passes I know are coming.

Your merge with the 51s gun pass is good and roll back into him nice, but now the 190s on you quick. If you had that extra separation you could have set him up for a better defense, but you get through it. At this point you could have used some of your speed to grab again. Both enemy were 1500 or more out and neither were trying to get aggressive. Give them your tail and grab at corning speed. You bank some alt, and maintain a good turning speed. If they are going to give you the time and space use it.

Watch Agent360s films. He spends most of his flights working up ways to give his enemies his tail so he can drag them in and kill them. I think like you said is to learn to be patient and wait for the enemy to make the mistakes, then pounce! With the BRD I like to have my wing tip pointed at them when they go to guns. If I don't quite make it there timing wise it's ok because I can still roll up and over for a snap shot or get ready for the next pass. Being early tho is bad because you burn more E going for that shot.

EDIT: ok, watched some more. At the early 6 minute mark as well as the early 7 minute mark there was time to grab. I'm not talking about zoom climbs, but get your nose up to get some of that alt back and bank a little E. The other thing is when you start you turns early like you seem to do it gives the enemy plane more time to adjust. Watch the 190s pass where he crashes with the trails on. His path hardly shows any change until the end where he stomps on the rudder to hit you and then flies into the ground. Start your turn easy and tighten it more and more. That forces him to turn more and more to pull lead. He has to pull harder to get ahead of you and so burn more E.

I think it was the 7 minute mark you had both of them under 200 and you were still over 200, but then you dove down and they both got that E back. They were NOT very aggressive so they were slow to burn E, but even then you had them but gave it back. Basically any time I'm not dodging I'm grabbing as long as I have my corning speed. Murdr use to say try to get multiple bogies in the same quadrant/area. It's easier to keep and eye on them and it gives you a good angle to grab some alt while giving them your 6.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 10:31:09 AM by The Fugitive »

Offline Randy1

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2013, 10:25:10 AM »


I have not thought of this. Usually I dump my flaps as I'm maneuvering. I would think that it would just bleed off E unnecessarily. You might avoid the attack, but you'd be very slow afterwards and probably a sitting duck for a 2nd attack. It most likely would be more affective to use angles (or plane of motion as mace put it) to keep as much of your E as you can and still forcing an overshoot


Yes, I am sure you are right but I think I will deploy the dive flaps on the 38L next time as soon as I think the saddle is coming.  It will not help much but an extra couple of inches might be the thickness of a tatter.    :)

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2013, 10:31:10 AM »
I think I understand what you're saying Fugi. I will have to do more practice in the MA again to see what kind of success I have.  :salute

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2013, 10:35:24 AM »
Yes, I am sure you are right but I think I will deploy the dive flaps on the 38L next time as soon as I think the saddle is coming.  It will not help much but an extra couple of inches might be the thickness of a tatter.    :)

This works in a pony well. I've seen some films of guys who will drop a notch and then make there turn to saddle up. I don't do it with my 38 as much because I prefer to keep it on the fast side. With the 38 I use the flaps more in the vertical, climbing spirals and such.

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2013, 12:16:31 PM »
Trying to loosen my turn up a bit like Fugi said to save E and get a better snap shot attempt, and I must say... it is painful! I am not used to flying this way at all. I have seen how it can work but timing and E judgement and management are absolutely key! Where I like to make a hard turn into my opponent thereby making it a certainty he will overshoot, a looser turn is more setting up for a snapshot than forcing an overshoot. Or at least this is how I've seen it so far.

Need some advice to make it work though. When should I start my turn? When my opponent is 1K away? When should I start my climb and roll too? Is there a certain location I want to keep my opponents plane in when I'm making my first turn? (i.e. keep him in my 7-8 o'clock area?)

Offline Hopper

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2013, 01:26:57 PM »
Agree with everything there Bruv.... except maybe the last part. I truly believe that with enough skills and knowledge of ACM and plane performances, a lone pilot can take on and defeat almost any number of opponents at once. That's just what I believe, and strive for.


I did make an attempt to get rounds on the 190 on one of the overshoots and try and put one of them out of the fight, but that just led to me losing sight of the P51 and almost dying. Eventually they both got the altitude advantage over me which is just about unavoidable in this match up (190/P51 vs 109F). If I tried to work my way to their alt then I know from experience that I was just going to get killed, so I let them have the alt and just waited for one of them to make a mistake. My patience did pay off as the 190 augered, and I got my 1v1...  which later turned into another 2v1  :lol , but that turned out to be a repeat of the first 2v1.

A little off topic but, I tried to convince myself this for awhile and too many times I have died a horrible death. 

The other night I had 2 ponies and la7 high 6 all coming in used BRD timing looked good on all 3 for an overshoot, came out of the slight black out and looked over my left wing to see 1 pony and the la.  I could hear another pony checked my 6 couldn't see him.  Was just about ready to pull the trigger on the pony and was thinking I might get a shot on the LA also and bam tower.  BigR was the 2nd pony, I'm assuming he chopped throttle cross control got flaps out and was waiting for me.  He knew exactly what I was going to do.

If I used any other defense to avoid a shot from all 3 it would have left me so E depleted they would have just took turns BnZing.

My point is over the years I've decided to try to work the fight into a 2v1 then turn in, 3 red guys is just too many for me to keep track of.
Hopper


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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2013, 02:47:18 PM »
Trying to loosen my turn up a bit like Fugi said to save E and get a better snap shot attempt, and I must say... it is painful! I am not used to flying this way at all. I have seen how it can work but timing and E judgement and management are absolutely key! Where I like to make a hard turn into my opponent thereby making it a certainty he will overshoot, a looser turn is more setting up for a snapshot than forcing an overshoot. Or at least this is how I've seen it so far.

Need some advice to make it work though. When should I start my turn? When my opponent is 1K away? When should I start my climb and roll too? Is there a certain location I want to keep my opponents plane in when I'm making my first turn? (i.e. keep him in my 7-8 o'clock area?)

For me I try to start my turn 1500 out, unless the guy really has some smash, then its a bit further out. It's not so much loosening up your turn as it is burning the E ONLY when you need to.

I'll try to explain it this way, as I first start the turn off my original line it's only about 5-10 degree off. As the con gets closer I increase the turn rate to 45 degrees off the original line. As he is coming into guns range I try to get my wing tip pointed at him. As he shoots I pull up and roll in the opposite direction of the turn. The higher the speed difference the tighter the barrel roll.... if you are going for a shot. If they have a lot of speed on me I don't waste the E going for a shot. I'll just roll out grabbing as I turn away. Once he turn toward me again I'll level off and give him my tail and set it up again.

If he keeps at it you should be able to get the E equalized by the third pass if he is being aggressive. In your film it would have taken a pass or two longer because neither was very aggressive. Once one of them thought the other guy would steal the kill they got more aggressive and one crashed, then the pony went back to being much less aggressive and extending to 2k+.

As you said, its all timing. Getting your self in the position to force that over shoot AND have the option to roll up over the top for a snap shot takes good timing.

Offline katanaso

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Re: Help, something I just can't improve on!
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2013, 03:52:29 PM »
A little off topic but, I tried to convince myself this for awhile and too many times I have died a horrible death. 

The other night I had 2 ponies and la7 high 6 all coming in used BRD timing looked good on all 3 for an overshoot, came out of the slight black out and looked over my left wing to see 1 pony and the la.  I could hear another pony checked my 6 couldn't see him.  Was just about ready to pull the trigger on the pony and was thinking I might get a shot on the LA also and bam tower.  BigR was the 2nd pony, I'm assuming he chopped throttle cross control got flaps out and was waiting for me.  He knew exactly what I was going to do.

If I used any other defense to avoid a shot from all 3 it would have left me so E depleted they would have just took turns BnZing.

My point is over the years I've decided to try to work the fight into a 2v1 then turn in, 3 red guys is just too many for me to keep track of.

When you have somebody as experienced at it as BigR, it generally doesn't work.  He's been around a long, long time, and can identify the moves as you start them.
mir
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