Author Topic: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000  (Read 3265 times)

Offline viking73

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 484
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2013, 11:30:48 PM »
VF-17 Updated.

Nice change of pace with the scoring system.  Survival has always been important to me in FSO, now we have an opportunity to be rewarded for it.  :salute

There has been points awarded for landing your plane in past FSO's. Nothing new here.



I am interested in seeing how it develops. I have scored frames with it already, comparing them to the traditional scoring. It produced the results I expected. Of course, no one knew and it didn't allow anyone to change any behavior going into the event. I expect there to be some aspect of wanting to preserve life over going into a massive low furball or a small fight near the end of the event, but their are still objectives to complete and they must be completed within T+60. Holding your forces and not completing your objectives will not be able to secure a victory. Likewise, Suicide Jabo attacks and small groups of defenders are not going to be helpful in stacking up points in this system.

CICs will now be able to go into a frame with a rough estimate of how many points their side is worth. Using the Minimum numbers of required aircraft and the minimum and maximum number of pilots available they have now have another factor to include with the Offensive and Defensive Objectives. They can also roughly estimate how many points the other side is holding going into the frame.

What are the objectives? Is there a set # of points earned if objectives are completed? Do they have to be completed fully or is it broken down by obj. dest. or is it just a pass/fail feature by doing something to that target/objective?  Targets are better. The problem with objectives is that they can too easily be fulfilled. For example, like in the past, a target has to be hit by t+60. We've had cases where a few planes hit it and fulfills that requirement. You could look at a target like a base flag. Allies destroy it (or % there of) they get the points it's worth. They don't Axis gets the points. I did notice that targets were listed as a full # of points, not individual objects within (ie:hanger,barracks). So,eg., how does one get the 200 pts for a town? Shades of scenario and Shuffler doing recon runs to photograph damage. It just makes it hard for us to know what's going on by looking at the logs.

This brings up another issue which is points for bombers. A bomber has the ability to get so many points through objects destroyed which doesn't equal the points if that bomber is shot down in past FSO's systems. So in your system, a bomber can get the objects destroyed but only lose 7 pts if it doesn't land. But that's assuming he's getting obj. dest. points.

One problem I'm sure you're aware of I can see is figuring out the scoring will need to be a lot more detailed. You can't just count the number of landings because the system counts landings for people who take the wrong skin or fuel load, lands after FSO has started and then reups the right plane. So I'm hope what each individual did is looked at and not just number totals. I keep tally of stats for KN so I've already been through this. Which this is going to make this much harder as I'll essentially be doing the same you will be doing only on a single squad basis.

I do see that keeping a plane from landing, ditching or bailing would be equal to a kill system but just less pts for each (3 pts vs 5 pts). It's just in a negative method instead of positive. So you shoot down 5 fighters (somebody else not me, I never get that many) and it subtracts 15 pts (5x3) from them. (more if bombers) If you land you don't lose 3 pts. Guess it's interesting to try but I do fear that it will affect gameplay having experience of Scenarios. Unfortunately there just are people who play with the system.
T2Maw
80th FS {OM-KNIGHTS} Kommando Nowotny {FSO}/{CCS}
S.A.P.P.
Air Warrior 1996, Aces High 2000
Skin Designer

Offline branch37

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1831
      • VF-17 Jolly Rogers
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2013, 06:28:20 AM »
There has been points awarded for landing your plane in past FSO's. Nothing new here.



I know there has, just saying as far as I know it's never been the main focus.

CMDR Branch37
VF-17 Jolly Rogers  C.O.

Offline Nefarious

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15858
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2013, 06:40:01 AM »
What are the objectives? Is there a set # of points earned if objectives are completed? Do they have to be completed fully or is it broken down by obj. dest. or is it just a pass/fail feature by doing something to that target/objective?  Targets are better. The problem with objectives is that they can too easily be fulfilled. For example, like in the past, a target has to be hit by t+60. We've had cases where a few planes hit it and fulfills that requirement. You could look at a target like a base flag. Allies destroy it (or % there of) they get the points it's worth. They don't Axis gets the points. I did notice that targets were listed as a full # of points, not individual objects within (ie:hanger,barracks). So,eg., how does one get the 200 pts for a town? Shades of scenario and Shuffler doing recon runs to photograph damage. It just makes it hard for us to know what's going on by looking at the logs.

Each object at a base is a set number of points. Every CM scores these differently (for the most part). A town is worth 200 points because the total number of objects and guns equals 200 points. A large Airfield is 572 because all the objects totaled up are worth 572.

This brings up another issue which is points for bombers. A bomber has the ability to get so many points through objects destroyed which doesn't equal the points if that bomber is shot down in past FSO's systems. So in your system, a bomber can get the objects destroyed but only lose 7 pts if it doesn't land. But that's assuming he's getting obj. dest. points.


Bombers were a bit tricky I admit, It will be the most detailed part of researching the logs too. Heavier 4 engine bombers (B-17 and B-24) will be worth more than the Boston and Ju88. As mentioned above, I am working on a "manageable" system for ground objects but I wasn't ready to go all in with it. Perhaps with some discussion after this event we can get that ironed out.

One problem I'm sure you're aware of I can see is figuring out the scoring will need to be a lot more detailed. You can't just count the number of landings because the system counts landings for people who take the wrong skin or fuel load, lands after FSO has started and then reups the right plane. So I'm hope what each individual did is looked at and not just number totals. I keep tally of stats for KN so I've already been through this. Which this is going to make this much harder as I'll essentially be doing the same you will be doing only on a single squad basis.  


Yep, this is going to more work for me. The logs the players see and the logs I use are different and allow filters and are exportable to Excel. I already am well aware that every single pilot record will have to be looked at and FWIW I have been looking at every pilot record for nearly all of my setups for quite some time.

Guess it's interesting to try but I do fear that it will affect gameplay having experience of Scenarios. Unfortunately there just are people who play with the system.


Again I agree, but I think FSO behavior has already started down a road of playing the system using the existing scoring systems in place. I'm hoping that this will make some subtle changes in FSO "behavior" and curb some of the "gaming" out of it.

Thanks, everyone's opinion is certainly appreciated! and ideas like Arlo's will be considered.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline ghostdancer

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7562
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2013, 06:53:32 AM »
Well to me it only seems like the focus is slightly different.

In the past your side got points for killing enemy planes. Each plane (fighter and bomber) had a point value assigned to it. Your side started with 0 points and added points by killing things.

Under Nef's scoring system you get points for each plane that survives. Each plane (fighter and bomber) has a point value assigned to it. The difference is your side starts with xxx many points instead of 0 and points are subtracted from this total by each plane you lose to enemy action. So you kill enemy planes to deny the enemy points, reduce their total points instead of starting from 0 on your side and adding points. Really this is not to different than what has been done before since still all planes have a point total associated with it.

The wrinkle now is that Nefarious is giving partial points for a plane that bails or ditches over friendly territory instead of full points for a landing. That is something new and we will have to see how that plays out. It looks like he is trying to put a greater emphasis on surviving in his designs. Yes, you still need to fight to 1) deny enemy points and 2) deny the enemy points for destroying you facilities and 3) getting your bombers to their facilities and bombing them. So you still have the same reasons for fighting as before (e.g. if you go off and circle a non targeted field all frame that will just allow the enemy to get in and bomb their target unopposed and gain points).

As for wracking up points for bombers. Well that to was the same case as before since bombers and their drones in all previous designs had points assigned to them. Say you have 30 bomber pilots and with their drones you have a total of 90 bombers. Each is worth 10 points. Before you started with 0 points and earned points by killing the bombers but you had a maximum point pool of 900 points here. Now instead the bombers starts with 900 points and each one you kill or doesn't make it home reduces that pull. So if you killed 30 in the previous scoring system you gained 300 points. If kill 30 in Nef's new system you reduce the other side by 300 points. Basically same thing just doing math in a different direction.

The big difference here is the bombers might lose points after an engagement as drones die flying home do to battle damage since the emphasis here is now on landing and everything else subtracts points from the total your side starts with. So a drone with an oil leak or fuel leak could be lost a significant after being attacked. In many of the previous scoring if a drone was lost and nobody received a kill credit no points were gained. Under Nef is a drone lossed and nobody receives kill credits your side still loses points.
X.O. 29th TFT, "We Move Mountains"
CM Terrain Team

Offline ghostdancer

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7562
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2013, 07:03:34 AM »
The only real issue I see here is that you can't guarantee that each side starts with the same point total. Since their starting point total depends on turnout. So the side that turns out less starts out at point disadvantage. Now things can still even out because the side with less pilots might still end up destroying more ground objects and killing more enemy planes (deny that side points) but they will inherently be at point disadvantage which could be harder to overcome depending on how many more points their side starts out with (how many more pilots they have in the air than your side).
X.O. 29th TFT, "We Move Mountains"
CM Terrain Team

Offline nooby52

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 990
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2013, 08:22:28 AM »
There's been a lot of interesting discussion in this thread about the nuts and bolts of how the new scoring system will work (or won't work) and how past scoring systems have worked, etc...and I've been fascinated by most of it because I have never even entertained the notion of planning one of these events. I'm just a grunt, and am content to remain a grunt, and I doff my hat to those smart enough to manage this awesome feat. I just love showing up and doing my best to contribute to our success as a squadron. But as I read and re-read these posts, one thing has become clear: whatever scoring system is used, I'm still gonna fly to 1) make it to the objective without augering or getting killed, and 2) making it back to our base alive, and then landing without cracking up. I really don't give a rat's behind about points, or even (blaspemy!) which side "wins". For me it's all about flying and wisecracking with my buds, and doing the best I can for them and my side, in general. I'll let those in charge worry over the points and such, so long as there's a FSO to fly in.

Nef, I just realized that what I wrote in the paragraph above may sound ungrateful. Please don't think that. I am very appreciative of your efforts to make this a better experience for all of us. It's because of you and those like you that I (we) get to participate in such a cool event on a regular basis. :salute
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 08:26:48 AM by nooby52 »

Flying as "South52" for VF-17 Jolly Rogers
17 Squadron - The Hardest Day Battle of Britain
204 Kokutai - Target Rabaul
610 Squadron -TFT Battle of Britain

Offline nooby52

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 990
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2013, 08:25:55 AM »
double post. D'oh!

Flying as "South52" for VF-17 Jolly Rogers
17 Squadron - The Hardest Day Battle of Britain
204 Kokutai - Target Rabaul
610 Squadron -TFT Battle of Britain

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2013, 09:01:39 AM »
... whatever scoring system is used, I'm still gonna fly to 1) make it to the objective without augering or getting killed, and 2) making it back to our base alive, and then landing without cracking up. I really don't give a rat's behind about points, or even (blaspemy!) which side "wins". For me it's all about flying and wisecracking with my buds, and doing the best I can for them and my side, in general. I'll let those in charge worry over the points and such, so long as there's a FSO to fly in.

Nef, I just realized that what I wrote in the paragraph above may sound ungrateful. Please don't think that. I am very appreciative of your efforts to make this a better experience for all of us. It's because of you and those like you that I (we) get to participate in such a cool event on a regular basis. :salute

 :D :D :D :cheers:

You're always fun to wing with. :)

Offline hyzer

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 209
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2013, 09:32:34 AM »
The only real issue I see here is that you can't guarantee that each side starts with the same point total. Since their starting point total depends on turnout. So the side that turns out less starts out at point disadvantage. Now things can still even out because the side with less pilots might still end up destroying more ground objects and killing more enemy planes (deny that side points) but they will inherently be at point disadvantage which could be harder to overcome depending on how many more points their side starts out with (how many more pilots they have in the air than your side).


Two sides to this issue that I see.  The side that brings more pilots to the show gets rewarded.  Or, calculate the ratio between the 2 sides and use it as a multiplier for the low sides total points:

Example:
Axis have 75 pilots, they land 50 points.  Allies have 71 pilots, they land 45 points.

Multiplier = 75/71
Multiplier = 1.056

Axis total points is 50

Allied total points is (45 x 1.056) 47.52



We have clearance, Clarence. Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?

Offline Nefarious

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15858
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2013, 04:49:06 PM »

Two sides to this issue that I see.  The side that brings more pilots to the show gets rewarded.  Or, calculate the ratio between the 2 sides and use it as a multiplier for the low sides total points:

Example:
Axis have 75 pilots, they land 50 points.  Allies have 71 pilots, they land 45 points.

Multiplier = 75/71
Multiplier = 1.056

Axis total points is 50

Allied total points is (45 x 1.056) 47.52

This is an interesting concept and would be beneficial in setups that have significant side split's like 60/40 or 55/45. It would also be great when there is a 20+ large side difference for whatever reason. Great idea.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline perdue3

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4680
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2013, 05:32:19 PM »
This is an interesting concept and would be beneficial in setups that have significant side split's like 60/40 or 55/45. It would also be great when there is a 20+ large side difference for whatever reason. Great idea.

IDK about giving them a curve. Percentage makes much more sense.
C.O. Kommando Nowotny 

FlyKommando.com

 

Offline hyzer

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 209
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2013, 06:53:34 PM »
IDK about giving them a curve. Percentage makes much more sense.

A ratio is not a curve, it is the comparison between two things.  In this case number of pilots per side.
We have clearance, Clarence. Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?

Offline viking73

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 484
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2013, 10:25:58 PM »
Interesting. But if the Allies (in this case) have the bombers, there's a good chance they will get a large sum of O.D. pts. The reason for eg:60/40 splits in the set up is to take into account the bomber factor. Sometimes it's just how the real scenario was. One side may have had less pilots but they may also have had formations. Technically 3x the 1 pilot.

Each object at a base is a set number of points. Every CM scores these differently (for the most part). A town is worth 200 points because the total number of objects and guns equals 200 points. A large Airfield is 572 because all the objects totaled up are worth 572.

When you go to sum things up, I think you'll see that a bomber pilot who makes it to target will get a lot of +pts that will negate the -7/-8. You'll probably see a lot of bails from bomber pilots after they drop or get into friendly territory. In Frame 2 of Into The Tigers Den Jan.11,2013 I got 4 targets in a GM4 formation totaling 60 pts (per setup). In some FSOs buffs were worth 20-25pts which equalizes their possible bomb damage pts.
 
Quote
Yep, this is going to more work for me. The logs the players see and the logs I use are different and allow filters and are exportable to Excel.
Think it's an option everyone should have. I'll still be counting and adjusting by the setup manually.
 
Quote
Thanks, everyone's opinion is certainly appreciated! and ideas like Arlo's will be considered.
I appreciate someone taking the time to try and improve things. As long as it's kept an eye on and is adjusted.  :salute
T2Maw
80th FS {OM-KNIGHTS} Kommando Nowotny {FSO}/{CCS}
S.A.P.P.
Air Warrior 1996, Aces High 2000
Skin Designer

Offline MachNix

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 644
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2013, 10:56:09 PM »
This is an interesting concept and would be beneficial in setups that have significant side split's like 60/40 or 55/45. It would also be great when there is a 20+ large side difference for whatever reason. Great idea.

When dealing with some type of ratio to normalize the scores, don't forget to factor in the reason for having a side split like 60/40.  Just because one side has more planes by design does not necessarily mean that side has a greater opportunity to land planes.  In PTO type events for example the Axis typically loose a lot of planes and they are given more to start with.  I have not gone back and looked at the logs, but just for illustration, let's say both side landed the same number of planes in the last event.  It would look like they fought to a draw under the new scoring system.  If the Axis had more planes to start with, the ratio would hurt them and you are moving back to the system of getting point for kills since the Axis lost more planes and the Allies got more points.

Coming up with a scoring system that gives both sides the sense they have an equal chance of winning is not easy.  It also has to be relatively simple so a CiC can figure out how to allocate his resources.   :salute

Offline Nefarious

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15858
Re: JUNE FSO: Crimean Catastrophe - Operation 60,000
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2013, 03:01:10 PM »
- Ack has been reduced to 0.4

- I have updated the Destroyer placement rules. The Axis destroyers groups in the evacuation area must now sail together and remain in one group. The group can be placed anywhere in the 4 grid evacuation area.

Thanks!
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!