This Won't Be Popular With Some...

[Karnak]

Reduce GV icon ranges for friendly aircraft to the same as they are for enemy aircraft.  Schmitt in his Wirbelwind was not talking to Hans in his Fw190D-9 and telling him to drag that P-51D over so the Wirbel could shoot it.  Hans would have essentially no idea where Schmitt was.  In AH let Schmitt use Vox to tell Hans where to go, not a magic 6000 yard marker that always tells Hans where Schmitt is when Frank can't see it until 600 yards.

Per the Wirbel at 1-2 perks.

Add a quad 20mm halftrack or truck.

The game has tilted too far in favor of the GVs, to the point where GVs are actively interfering in strictly air-to-air fights like they complained of aircraft interfering in strictly gv-to-gv fights.

[bozon]

The game has tilted too far in favor of the GVs, to the point where GVs are actively interfering in strictly air-to-air fights like they complained of aircraft interfering in strictly gv-to-gv fights.

That is the main issue, combined with the ridiculous accuracy and modeling of AA guns - no recoil, no reload pauses. It is really amusing to see in such threads in which players defend the possibility of hitting a plane with a tank main gun.

GVs are different than planes. A spawning plane is helpless for about a minute till it takes off and picks up a bit of speed. Wirbs just spawn, roll 10 feet out of the VH and pose a significant threat to areal activity. Now lets say that the planes get smart, one draws the wirb's attention while the other strafes it. Even if the latter did some significant damage (usually not), the wirb will just exit (no kill to the plane), respawn and be firing from the same location in 10 seconds.

Base defense is only the lesser half of the issue. The wirbs can also remote spawn near an enemy base and threat plane taking off and landing in just a couple of minutes - no radar, no dar bar, no icons will well within threat range. This is completely different from a plane approaching an enemy base. In many spawn points, the wirb will be back quicker then a plane can do so after getting shot down. Spawn points need to be moved back, but that is another issue related to maps design.

By the way, planes interfering with strictly GV fights I bet are 90% of the cases being flown by players who are mainly GVers. I can tell by how easy they are to shoot down when I am CAPing V bases or fly over tank town. When GVs attack an airfield, they should expect to be bombed into submission - they are interfering with the air war.

[Karnak]

Almost all of my non-Il-2/A-20G/Fi156 deaths to GVs happened when I was engaged in an air-to-air fight and I ended up in range, planned or unplanned by my opponent, of a Wirbelwind.

That said, I don't have a real problem with the main gun kills by tanks.  It is relatively easy to avoid and I don't see any way to stop it short of making tank rounds pass through aircraft without hurting them, a severe violation of consistency.

[Letalis]

Looks like there are some loose ends to tie up on the personal front.  Let's remember that I did not start the thread to insult Mr. Tank Ace, but this was in his first response:

So because the aircraft doesn't have his life at stake, and so flies in a manner so much stupider and vulnerable than in real life.... we should perk the Wirbelwind....

as well as this:

What the hell have you been drinking?

Pretty standard fare for forums, but, good sir, shouldn't it take at least 3-4 exchanges before you identify yourself as a member of the genus Equus africanus asinus??  

If I wrinkled some precious contrived emotional perception of yours, I do apologize!

Letalis, don't be obtuse. Regardless of if it's the plane or the pilot being dumb (and I guaran-damn-tee you knew what I meant), the fact remains that the Wirbelwind in no way responsible for the high KTD, the planes/pilots are.

Hmm.  By this reasoning the M3 should have a K/D on par with the Wirb because the Wirb is "in no way responsible for the high KTD, the planes/pilots are." If the premiere AAA GV can't impact K/D vs. aircraft, what GV can?  

I understood your point and rejected it; don't be obtuse  

And it is no more unbalancing than the dozens of other things that are all screwed up either. Spits fighting spits, 109s fighting 190s, and the number of wirbs produced relative to their usage bothers you?

N/A. This is a false dilemma fallacy/straw man.  I never said those aspects didn't bug me.  Unlike the Wirb issue however, I understand the reasoning.

Also, reasons for why il-2s were common in WW2 is entirely relevant, when you were talking about how uncommon it is in the game (the reason being that it is terrible in game, and far less survivable than many other attack platforms.)

False dilemma/straw man again (could fall under any number of fallacies actually).  I already dismissed this. You'd made a spurious comment that Russian pilots were forced to fly the IL-2 and that should have something to do with the IL-2's established historical prevalence and demonstrated effectiveness -that's what we call a red herring, and it does not bolster your position.  

Your problems are either contrived or based on your emotional perception of what's going on. I think we're done here.

Wrong again.  Let's make this easier for you.  Pick either "contrived" or "emotional" and prove it.  A judgment can be an attack, but the attack is only as valid as the judgment - so far I'm not impressed.  While you're at it, reference this page and come back when you're ready.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies)  

[gyrene81]

   perk the wirbel...

make it the same as the t-34/85 or panther...problem (whines) solved.

[Megalodon]

-This discussion has much more to do with the fact that a vehicle model with maybe 100-ish examples makes up two thirds of the AAA GV kills, and is #4 overall in kills.

Quite ridiculous ...

Yes If this was the case in the real war we would off been out of planes.... or Hittler wouldn't of needed any...

[WWhiskey]

The game has tilted too far in favor of the GVs, to the point where GVs are actively interfering in strictly air-to-air fights like they complained of aircraft interfering in strictly gv-to-gv fights.

Not trying to pick on anyone just,,,,
My two cents
GV's fight near or on base, near or at a spawn or in towns,,, that's it!   They occupy maybe one eighth of the land mass of AH and none of the sky above 2k or so,yet you say they are interfering with the " strictly air to air fights"?
A GV can't fly, it can't swim  ( small exceptions )and 7/8ths of the map are GV free yet that's not enough?
Have your air to air battles over 2 k up or away from GV spawns,, if your in a fight and the guy drags you off to a sitting wirble,,, he wasn't in a "strictly air to air fight"!
GV's need all the help they can get from wirble's, as well as freindly planes to be a part of the game at all,, don't believe me,, set up a map with only GV's on one side and only aircraft on the other and see who wins
You can bomb the hangers down long before the GV's can kill off the ords and or hangers,  IMHO!

[Karnak]

Air battles frequently form over GVs due to the presence of the GV hunting aircraft drawing in fighters to prey on them and then fighters to fight those fighters.

While GVs only occupy a small portion of the map, as you say, it is usually the portions were the fighting is more intense.

[Aspen]

I completely agree with Letalis...the part where he said this won't be popular with some.

[asterix]

That is the main issue, combined with the ridiculous accuracy and modeling of AA guns - no recoil, no reload pauses. It is really amusing to see in such threads in which players defend the possibility of hitting a plane with a tank main gun.

I can`t comment on the recoil accuracy, but it seems to be modeled in the game because the gunsight trembles when gun fires. If Wirble is really that dangerous then maybe it should be perked, but I would like some new anti air weapons introduced as presented before. Isn`t the ground cannon ballistics better than aircraft because of the longer barrel and more stable platform? I see no reason why anti air cannons shouldn`t have a reload time. The crews could reload their guns when desired in reality.

GVs are different than planes. A spawning plane is helpless for about a minute till it takes off and picks up a bit of speed. Wirbs just spawn, roll 10 feet out of the VH and pose a significant threat to areal activity. Now lets say that the planes get smart, one draws the wirb's attention while the other strafes it. Even if the latter did some significant damage (usually not), the wirb will just exit (no kill to the plane), respawn and be firing from the same location in 10 seconds.

Destroying the vehicle hangar prevents gvs from respawning. If a base is being attacked for capture then the vh is usually one of the top targets. This part seems like a complaint that the Wirbles interfere with vulching enemy aircraft while they are trying to take off. Wirbs 10ft near the vh do not interfere with air combat otherwise, do they? Aircraft over the field already have speed, altitude, ords and they are ready for combat.

Base defense is only the lesser half of the issue. The wirbs can also remote spawn near an enemy base and threat plane taking off and landing in just a couple of minutes - no radar, no dar bar, no icons will well within threat range. This is completely different from a plane approaching an enemy base. In many spawn points, the wirb will be back quicker then a plane can do so after getting shot down. Spawn points need to be moved back, but that is another issue related to maps design.

Planes can take off in different directions. The town usually starts blinking when a gv is in close proximity, but out of the base blinking range. I have been blown up more by tanks on the field when I am still on the runway than Wirbs after take off. Flak weapons are easy targets for gvs so they usually tend to stay away from tanks and large caliber cannons.

By the way, planes interfering with strictly GV fights I bet are 90% of the cases being flown by players who are mainly GVers. I can tell by how easy they are to shoot down when I am CAPing V bases or fly over tank town. When GVs attack an airfield, they should expect to be bombed into submission - they are interfering with the air war.

So do you think the Wirbs should be perked so that it would be even easier to shoot down attack planes? If a fighter pilots wants to stop attack planes getting to a V base you can always intercept them before they get to the vehicle battle area. When gvs attack an airfield then this could just be a base take similar to V base take with aircraft. Air, land and sea battle seems to be combined in AH2 without any preference to one.

[bozon]

I can`t comment on the recoil accuracy, but it seems to be modeled in the game because the gunsight trembles when gun fires.
<snip>
 This part seems like a complaint that the Wirbles interfere with vulching enemy aircraft while they are trying to take off. Wirbs 10ft near the vh do not interfere with air combat otherwise, do they? Aircraft over the field already have speed, altitude, ords and they are ready for combat.

There is no recoil, just a visual effect of the screen shaking. The aiming point does not move.
There is also no reload of what was quite a short clip. There is no vibration when driving allnsurfaces are perfectly smooth which allows fiire on the move which is completely impractial in real life unless we are talking drive by shooting. The ground is generally perfectly flat even off road which means gv's can go anywhere at top speed and when stopped, the are never at an awekward angle.

The fact is that GVs are modeled no where near the realism level achieved in the flight modeling. The standard has been set qhen GVs where a side show in this game. It is no longer so.

Wirbs on an airfield are much more than vulch defence. Planes in trouble drag the enemy near the field to be shot by wirbs. The remote spawn points are much too close to enemy bases and wirbs spring into action too soon after spawning. For example, yesterday a wirb spawned near a rook base and was shooting at planes after takeoff. Occasionally, someone would kill it, but it simply respawn and keep shooting. Even worse, I strafed and killed it while it was shooting at another friendly plane - before I could do a 360 and get out of there it respawed and hit my oil and radiator. Now that is ridiculous.

[Nathan60]

I wouldn't...

Wirbelwind overall K/D by year
(Image removed from quote.)

How would that relate to player population?

[gyrene81]

Wirbs on an airfield are much more than vulch defence. Planes in trouble drag the enemy near the field to be shot by wirbs. The remote spawn points are much too close to enemy bases and wirbs spring into action too soon after spawning. For example, yesterday a wirb spawned near a rook base and was shooting at planes after takeoff. Occasionally, someone would kill it, but it simply respawn and keep shooting. Even worse, I strafed and killed it while it was shooting at another friendly plane - before I could do a 360 and get out of there it respawed and hit my oil and radiator. Now that is ridiculous.

why not just request that gv's have a delayed respawn timer? a 30 second delay in re-spawn time would make a difference in the way things play out. maybe make the respawn delay a progressive timer that goes from 30 to 90 seconds based on the number of times a player has chosen to use any gv in the hangar.

if the truth be told, this "wish" is nothing more than a whine, probably brought on by the op getting dragged over a wirbel in a perk plane.

[SmokinLoon]

Considering the AA platforms we currently have, I say the late war ENY values are about right.

M16 = 35
Ostwind = 25
Wirblewind = 10

[bozon]

why not just request that gv's have a delayed respawn timer? a 30 second delay in re-spawn time would make a difference in the way things play out.

That is not bad.